until vs by

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KJH
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 10:45 pm Post subject: until vs by

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences? (A) 1.I need it by monday. 2.I need it until monday. (B) 1.We need it by 8 o' clock. 2.We need it until 8 o' clock

Donna Richoux
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: until vs by

KJH <dkre@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.

I don't have the thing, and I want to receive it any time between now
and Monday. I don't want to wait until Tuesday to receive it.

Quote:

2.I need it until monday.

I have the thing now (or I will soon), and I want to keep it from now to
Monday. On Monday or Tuesday I can get rid of it or give it away.

There are some borderline problems -- *when* on Monday? First thing in
the morning? Last thing at night? -- but the difference between "by" and
"until" is bigger than any mere borderline problem.

Quote:

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.

We want to receive it between now and 8 o'clock. No later than 8.

Quote:

2.We need it until 8 o' clock

We want to keep it between now and 8 o'clock, and after that we don't
need it any longer.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Pat Durkin
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:44 pm Post subject: Re: until vs by

"KJH" <dkre@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2st786F1pp9vvU1@uni-berlin.de...

Quote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.
2.I need it until monday.

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.
2.We need it until 8 o' clock

In both examples "1." you are announcing the latest day or hour on which
you/we can begin a project requiring "it". The project will fail or not
begin if you don't have "it", or you/we will have passed over the need for
"it" by finding a satisfactory substitute.

In both examples "2." you are saying that you/we need "it" now and
throughout the hours or days until 8 o'clock or Monday, after which you/we
presumably will stop needing it.

Martin Willett
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:09 am Post subject: Re: until vs by

Donna Richoux wrote:

Quote:

KJH <dkre@hotmail.com> wrote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.

I don't have the thing, and I want to receive it any time between
now
and Monday. I don't want to wait until Tuesday to receive it.

2.I need it until monday.

I have the thing now (or I will soon), and I want to keep it from
now
to Monday. On Monday or Tuesday I can get rid of it or give it away.

There are some borderline problems -- *when* on Monday? First thing
in
the morning? Last thing at night? -- but the difference between "by"
and "until" is bigger than any mere borderline problem.

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.

We want to receive it between now and 8 o'clock. No later than 8.

2.We need it until 8 o' clock

We want to keep it between now and 8 o'clock, and after that we
don't
need it any longer.

What she said.

Be thankful don't live in the vicinity of the fair city of Manchester
where some people will use the word 'while' to mean until or between.
e.g. gisa borra of that while Thursday. = Please, my good man, lend
this small thing to me until Thursday, when I vouchsafe to return it
to your possession.

--
Martin Willett

http://mwillett.org/

the Omrud
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 3:59 am Post subject: Re: until vs by

Martin Willett typed thus:

Quote:

Be thankful don't live in the vicinity of the fair city of Manchester
where some people will use the word 'while' to mean until or between.
e.g. gisa borra of that while Thursday. = Please, my good man, lend
this small thing to me until Thursday, when I vouchsafe to return it
to your possession.

Which can cause difficulty with pedestrian crossings: "Do not cross
while the green man is flashing".

--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article.

meirman
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:22 am Post subject: Re: until vs by

In alt.english.usage on Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:09:56 +0100 "Martin
Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> posted:

Quote:

Is this the equivalent of "Give me the borrow of that...."?

Quote:

this small thing to me until Thursday, when I vouchsafe to return it
to your possession.

s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.

Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
now in Baltimore 20 years

Odysseus
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:04 am Post subject: Re: until vs by

meirman wrote:

Quote:

In alt.english.usage on Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:09:56 +0100 "Martin
Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> posted:

[snip]

Quote:

Be thankful don't live in the vicinity of the fair city of Manchester
where some people will use the word 'while' to mean until or between.
e.g. gisa borra of that while Thursday. = Please, my good man, lend

Is this the equivalent of "Give me the borrow of that...."?

I believe so: I'd parse "gisa" as "give us a/the".

--
Odysseus

Steve Hayes
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:01 am Post subject: Re: until vs by

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:45:14 +0900, "KJH" <dkre@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.

I need it on or before Monday, for use from Monday on.

Quote:

2.I need it until monday.

I won't need it after Monday (and will return it then).

Quote:

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.

We will use it after 1 o'clock.

Quote:

2.We need it until 8 o' clock

We will *not* use it after 1 o'clock.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Wakeley Purple
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:06 am Post subject: Re: until vs by

KJH wrote:

Quote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.
2.I need it until monday.

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.
2.We need it until 8 o' clock

Note that "by" implies "at the side of" or "near to". Thus "I need it by
Monday" ==> "I need it when Monday is nearly here."

"Until" implies continuation through a time span.

--
Wake

the Omrud
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: until vs by

meirman typed thus:

Quote:

In alt.english.usage on Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:09:56 +0100 "Martin
Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> posted:

What she said.

Be thankful don't live in the vicinity of the fair city of Manchester
where some people will use the word 'while' to mean until or between.
e.g. gisa borra of that while Thursday. = Please, my good man, lend

Is this the equivalent of "Give me the borrow of that...."?

this small thing to me until Thursday, when I vouchsafe to return it
to your possession.

Yes. "Gisa" is "give us a". It's reasonably common in colloquial UK
English to refer to oneself as "us".

"Throw us that newspaper, will you?"
"Can you give us a lift?" which means "Please can you assist me in
raising this heavy item?"

--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article.

the Omrud
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: until vs by

Wakeley Purple typed thus:

Quote:

KJH wrote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.
2.I need it until monday.

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.
2.We need it until 8 o' clock

Note that "by" implies "at the side of" or "near to". Thus "I need it by
Monday" ==> "I need it when Monday is nearly here."

Not to me - in this case, "by" means "before".

--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article.

Donna Richoux
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: until vs by

Steve Hayes <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:45:14 +0900, "KJH" <dkre@hotmail.com> wrote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.

I need it on or before Monday, for use from Monday on.

2.I need it until monday.

I won't need it after Monday (and will return it then).

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.

We will use it after 1 o'clock.

2.We need it until 8 o' clock

We will *not* use it after 1 o'clock.

I think Steve was adjusting for seven hours time zone difference.

cljlk
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: until vs by

"KJH" <dkre@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2st786F1pp9vvU1@uni-berlin.de>...

Quote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.
It means:

The due date is Monday. I need it by Monday it probaly is too late after Monday.

Quote:

2.I need it until monday.
We usually use negative:

I don't need it until Monday.
I don't need it before Mondy.

Quote:

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.
2.We need it until 8 o' clock
Same as above (A)

Robin Bignall
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: until vs by

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 09:14:14 +0100, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:

meirman typed thus:

In alt.english.usage on Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:09:56 +0100 "Martin
Willett" <ignoredmailbox@ntlworld.com> posted:

What she said.

Be thankful don't live in the vicinity of the fair city of Manchester
where some people will use the word 'while' to mean until or between.
e.g. gisa borra of that while Thursday. = Please, my good man, lend

Is this the equivalent of "Give me the borrow of that...."?

this small thing to me until Thursday, when I vouchsafe to return it
to your possession.

Yes. "Gisa" is "give us a". It's reasonably common in colloquial UK
English to refer to oneself as "us".

"Throw us that newspaper, will you?"
"Can you give us a lift?" which means "Please can you assist me in
raising this heavy item?"

In happier times, "Gisa lift" might have been heard from students
hitching their way to or from college or home, but hitch-hiking can no
longer be practised safely.

--

wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Hertfordshire
England

Skitt
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:18 am Post subject: Re: until vs by

Wakeley Purple wrote:

Quote:

KJH wrote:

Can you tell me the difference in meaning between these sentences?

(A)
1.I need it by monday.
2.I need it until monday.

(B)
1.We need it by 8 o' clock.
2.We need it until 8 o' clock

Note that "by" implies "at the side of" or "near to". Thus "I need it
by Monday" ==> "I need it when Monday is nearly here."

"Until" implies continuation through a time span.

Not necessarily "through", though. With hours especially, it is "up to".
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

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