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Pat Durkin
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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"graham" <stratman@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:mEDad.714441$gE.452044@pd7tw3no...
| Quote: |
"Christopher Green" <cj.green@att.net> wrote in message
news:miujm0p27nnvc9gsf662b1h6l1sh200ltr@4ax.com...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:00:57 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
Unlike some other Protestant denominations, they
are not addressed as "Reverend"; that is used only as part of their
title.
But when are Protestant clerics addressed as "Reverend"? I thought that
one
addressed an envelope to the Reverend Mr/Dr Smith but in conversation as
Mr/Dr Smith.
The local radio hosts haven't any idea when to use the title so when they
talk to a minister/pastor/priest etc., they inevitably introduce him with
"Here is the Reverend Smith", begin their questions with "Reverend Smith,
what do you.........."? and finish with "Thankyou, Reverend Smith. That
was
the Reverend Smith, pastor etc. of the Whatever Church".
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I consider such titles as "the Reverend" and "the Right Reverend", to be
titles used in indirect address (third person), but then, I was raised in
the (US) Catholic traditions. We also addressed our pastor "Father" or
"Monsignor" if he had achieved that stage in his hierarchy.
When my family moved into a decidedly Protestant community, I was confused
by the ways in which my schoolmates addressed their pastors. Some would
say, "Good morning, Reverend X", and others would say "Good morning, Pastor
X". I understand that some may have used, "Good morning, Doctor (or Mister
or even Parson) X", but can't recall hearing those uses "live".
I wouldn't be able to recall for you which usages were the most commonly
used among the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, or the several varieties of
Lutherans or Baptists.
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Den
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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Oops ... sorry ... I should read more thoroughly before posting.
D
"Christopher Green" <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:c31fa7b1.0410111922.df00807@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | "Den" <nul@nul.nul> wrote in message
news:<kVxad.4363$YU4.2996@trnddc06>...
Careful! The term rector has a different meaning in BrEng ... your
definition is for AmEng. In Br Eng the difference between a rector and
a
vicar relates, I believe, to where the source of the funds used to pay
their
stipend comes from ... tythes and all that!
You're quite right... the OP did specifically ask about American
(Domestic and Foreign Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal
Church in the United States of America, usually and prudently
shortened to Episcopal Church USA) usage.
--
Chris Green |
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Den
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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Surely, indirectly he is The Rev'd Smith, but directly Rev'd Smith or Father
John or Father Smith depending on personal preference (which is also usually
an indicator or high church / low church).
D
"Christopher Green" <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:c31fa7b1.0410111926.769955a@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | "graham" <stratman@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:<mEDad.714441$gE.452044@pd7tw3no>...
"Christopher Green" <cj.green@att.net> wrote in message
news:miujm0p27nnvc9gsf662b1h6l1sh200ltr@4ax.com...
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:00:57 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
Unlike some other Protestant denominations, they
are not addressed as "Reverend"; that is used only as part of their
title.
But when are Protestant clerics addressed as "Reverend"? I thought that
one
addressed an envelope to the Reverend Mr/Dr Smith but in conversation as
Mr/Dr Smith.
The local radio hosts haven't any idea when to use the title so when
they
talk to a minister/pastor/priest etc., they inevitably introduce him
with
"Here is the Reverend Smith", begin their questions with "Reverend
Smith,
what do you.........."? and finish with "Thankyou, Reverend Smith. That
was
the Reverend Smith, pastor etc. of the Whatever Church".
Graham
If the Rev. Smith were ordained Episcopalian, you would introduce him
as Rev. Smith, but in direct address he would be "Father Smith, ..."
if you were being painfully proper.
--
Chris Green |
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Richard R. Hershberger
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:39 am
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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Christopher Green <cj.green@att.net> wrote in message news:<miujm0p27nnvc9gsf662b1h6l1sh200ltr@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 01:00:57 GMT, Gary Eickmeier
geickmei@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
MC wrote:
What is the usual, conventional, customary or preferred way to refer to
an Episcopalian minister in AmE: Priest? Vicar? Minister? Something else?
Priest, unless he's a bishop or a deacon; see below.
Also, would one use the term "curate" to describe a junior cleric?
See below. "Curate" describes the senior minister of a "mission", not
a junior cleric.
I am not Episcopalian, but I have shot enough weddings at All Saints
Episcopal to know that they are more Catholic than the Catholics, and
they call themselves priests, addressed as "father."
Must be High Church Episcopalian, then. They do carefully preserve a
lot of traditions that go back to before Henry VIII, and even some
that are Orthodox rather than Roman Catholic.
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And some post-Henrician traditions as well. A few years ago I
attended an evensong at St. Clement's, the Anglo-Catholic church in
Philadelphia. At one point the gaggle of clergy moved from the main
to the side altar and prayed to the Virgin. The prayer included the
words "immaculately conceived", thereby incorporating a
post-Reformation Roman Catholic doctrine. These guys are
theologically a bit confused, but no one beats them at ecclesiastical
theater!
| Quote: |
The general term for a minister authorized to celebrate the sacraments
is "priest"; a second class of ordained minister is "deacon". Both use
the honorific "Reverend". They have further titles depending on their
position: the minister in charge of a parish is "Rector"; the minister
in charge of a mission is "Curate". (A parish is a self-supporting
congregation; a mission is not self-supporting.)
|
I was given to understand that in the Episcopal Church the minister in
charge of a mission was a vicar, i.e. acting vicariously for the
bishop. This is consistent with MW Online: [under vicar] "b : a
member of the Episcopal clergy or laity who has charge of a mission or
chapel". On the other hand, Merriam Webster may not be the best
source for such technical minutiae.
Richard R. Hershberger |
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Christopher Green
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:01 am
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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rrhersh@acme.com (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote in message news:<82401463.0410121339.43bfa198@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | Christopher Green <cj.green@att.net> wrote in message news:<miujm0p27nnvc9gsf662b1h6l1sh200ltr@4ax.com>...
[snip]
The general term for a minister authorized to celebrate the sacraments
is "priest"; a second class of ordained minister is "deacon". Both use
the honorific "Reverend". They have further titles depending on their
position: the minister in charge of a parish is "Rector"; the minister
in charge of a mission is "Curate". (A parish is a self-supporting
congregation; a mission is not self-supporting.)
I was given to understand that in the Episcopal Church the minister in
charge of a mission was a vicar, i.e. acting vicariously for the
bishop. This is consistent with MW Online: [under vicar] "b : a
member of the Episcopal clergy or laity who has charge of a mission or
chapel". On the other hand, Merriam Webster may not be the best
source for such technical minutiae.
Richard R. Hershberger
|
I was going by an ECUSA Web site that appears to have got it wrong.
Others have "curate" as a priest who serves as assistant to the Rector
and "vicar" as a priest who is in charge of a mission, just as M-W has
it. (The responsible bishop is the Rector of the mission).
--
Chris Green |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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"Christopher Green" <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:c31fa7b1.0410111926.769955a@posting.google.com...
[...]
| Quote: | If the Rev. Smith were ordained Episcopalian, you would introduce him
as Rev. Smith, but in direct address he would be "Father Smith, ..."
if you were being painfully proper.
|
I know the question was about AmE but can't resist the comment that in BrE
"Rev.Smith"/"Reverend Smith" is always improper, whatever the denomination
of the minister. It's thought improper to omit "The" from "The Reverend" or
to shorten it in speech to "Rev." If an abbreviation is needed in writing,
it must be "The
Revd". - the 'd' is essential, or so etiquette says. But these "rules" are
gradually changing, perhaps because of AmE influence, and I frequentlyy hear
"Reverend Smith" for the pastor of an evangelical church with a
predominantly Black congregation.
In a radio interview, an Episcopalian priest would be introduced as "[The
Reverend] John Smith, Vicar of Himbleton" and addressed as "Vicar" (or more
probably by his/her first name if he/she happened to be a regular on the
programme). "Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms/Dr Smith" would be correct in direct address or
reference after the fuller version when the guest was introduced (or Father
John /Father Smith for an Anglo-Catholic).
Alan Jones |
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Richard R. Hershberger
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 7:21 pm
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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cj.green@worldnet.att.net (Christopher Green) wrote in message news:<c31fa7b1.0410121901.71665287@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | rrhersh@acme.com (Richard R. Hershberger) wrote in message news:<82401463.0410121339.43bfa198@posting.google.com>...
Christopher Green <cj.green@att.net> wrote in message news:<miujm0p27nnvc9gsf662b1h6l1sh200ltr@4ax.com>...
[snip]
The general term for a minister authorized to celebrate the sacraments
is "priest"; a second class of ordained minister is "deacon". Both use
the honorific "Reverend". They have further titles depending on their
position: the minister in charge of a parish is "Rector"; the minister
in charge of a mission is "Curate". (A parish is a self-supporting
congregation; a mission is not self-supporting.)
I was given to understand that in the Episcopal Church the minister in
charge of a mission was a vicar, i.e. acting vicariously for the
bishop. This is consistent with MW Online: [under vicar] "b : a
member of the Episcopal clergy or laity who has charge of a mission or
chapel". On the other hand, Merriam Webster may not be the best
source for such technical minutiae.
I was going by an ECUSA Web site that appears to have got it wrong.
Others have "curate" as a priest who serves as assistant to the Rector
and "vicar" as a priest who is in charge of a mission, just as M-W has
it. (The responsible bishop is the Rector of the mission).
|
If you read Victorian literature you will find curates characterized
as clergymen without the influence to get good positions who instead
are hired by the clergymen who do have those positions to assist, or
even to do the actual work. They are invariably meagerly paid and
live like paupers. |
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Christopher Green
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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"Den" <nul@nul.nul> wrote in message news:<6MXad.1888$MY.729@trnddc03>...
| Quote: | Surely, indirectly he is The Rev'd Smith, but directly Rev'd Smith or Father
John or Father Smith depending on personal preference (which is also usually
an indicator or high church / low church).
D
|
See Alan Jones's post, which covers both British and American usage:
The Reverend Smith is proper, but in the US, only those who are
attending to the formalities are careful to use it.
In direct address, "Reverend Smith" is common for other Protestant
denominations, but not for Episcopalian, where "Father" is proper.
--
Chris Green |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2004 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: Episcopalian Nomenclature |
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"Christopher Green" <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:c31fa7b1.0410130950.725fb32b@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | See Alan Jones's post, which covers both British and American usage:
The Reverend Smith is proper, but in the US, only those who are
attending to the formalities are careful to use it.
In direct address, "Reverend Smith" is common for other Protestant
denominations, but not for Episcopalian, where "Father" is proper.
|
Sorry - I wrote ambiguously. In BrE, there has to be something between
"Reverend" and "Smith": The Reverend John Smith, The Reverend Mr/Dr Smith,
but never The Reverend Smith. It's rather like Sir for a knight: "Sir John
Smith", in direct address plain "Sir John" (which is formal, not familiar)
or even just (to his friends) "John", but never ever "Sir Smith". Just so
with "The Reverend".
Alan Jones |
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