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Michael
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:01 pm
Post subject: Usage of "of" |
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Hi,
Is there any difference in meaning for the following two sentences?
"Inventions can be of great benefit to society."
"Inventions can be great benefit to society."
When should "can be of" be used?
Cheers,
Michael
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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Michael wrote on 24 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | Hi,
Is there any difference in meaning for the following two sentences?
"Inventions can be of great benefit to society."
"Inventions can be great benefit to society."
When should "can be of" be used?
|
If you use "can be" + [noun], you usually have to have a preposition
("of") or an article ("a/an" or "the").
You use "can be of" when you want to be verbose and pretentious. Always
use this kind of phrase to sound pompous and pretentious. It's better
to say "can be (very) beneficial to society", although some would
question the wisdom of adding that "very" in a formal document.
In other words, don't use this collocation of words. It stinks
stylistically.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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On 24 Nov 2004 12:25:00 GMT, CyberCypher
<cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrought:
| Quote: | Michael wrote on 24 Nov 2004:
Hi,
Is there any difference in meaning for the following two sentences?
"Inventions can be of great benefit to society."
"Inventions can be great benefit to society."
When should "can be of" be used?
If you use "can be" + [noun], you usually have to have a preposition
("of") or an article ("a/an" or "the").
You use "can be of" when you want to be verbose and pretentious. Always
use this kind of phrase to sound pompous and pretentious. It's better
to say "can be (very) beneficial to society", although some would
question the wisdom of adding that "very" in a formal document.
In other words, don't use this collocation of words. It stinks
stylistically.
|
Here it may stink, but used judiciously in other contexts, though, it
can come up smelling of roses:
Is that gadget of any real use to you?
I can't think of any paraphrase with "useful", rather than "of use",
that would be idiomatic, mean the same and give big clues about the
speaker's attitude in the same way.
--
Ross Howard
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John Lawler
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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Michael <dayzman@hotmail.com> writes:
| Quote: | Is there any difference in meaning for the following two sentences?
"Inventions can be of great benefit to society."
"Inventions can be great benefit to society."
|
Yes, there is a difference, a big difference.
The first one is grammatical
and the second one is ungrammatical.
'Of benefit' is a predicate prepositional phrase.
So it has to be used all of.
Since it's a prepositional phrase, its object
noun can be modified by an adjective; that's 'great'.
Then the whole phrase '[of [great benefit]]' is the
predicate, preceded by the usual 'be' that marks
non-verbal predicates.
And you need the preposition to show it's a
prepositional phrase and not a noun phrase,
which would require 'a' to mark a predicate noun.
| Quote: | When should "can be of" be used?
|
That's the wrong question.
'Can be of' is not a constituent.
The relevant constituent is the idiomatic
predicate prepositional phrase 'be of benefit'.
Grammatical rules only refer to constituents, not to
random strings of words. If you parse the sentence
into its constituents, you can ask useful questions.
But if you deal in strings of words, you'll almost
never get a useful grammatical answer, since strings
of words only rarely represent whole constituents.
For instance, the answer to the correct question
When should "be of benefit" be used?
is
"Whenever one wants to express the meaning of 'be
of benefit', which is a fancy way of saying 'be
useful', or 'be (unspecifically) helpful', in a
fancy way."
By the way, the same construction occurs in 'be of help',
'be of assistance', 'be of value', and 'be of use'.
Get the picture?
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"The purpose of a fishtrap is to catch fish, and when the fish are caught
the trap is forgotten. The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits.
When the rabbits are caught the snare is forgotten. The purpose of words
is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words?
He is the one I would like to talk to." -- Chuang Tzu |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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Ross Howard wrote on 24 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | On 24 Nov 2004 12:25:00 GMT, CyberCypher
cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrought:
Michael wrote on 24 Nov 2004:
Hi,
Is there any difference in meaning for the following two
sentences?
"Inventions can be of great benefit to society."
"Inventions can be great benefit to society."
When should "can be of" be used?
If you use "can be" + [noun], you usually have to have a
preposition ("of") or an article ("a/an" or "the").
You use "can be of" when you want to be verbose and pretentious.
Always use this kind of phrase to sound pompous and pretentious.
It's better to say "can be (very) beneficial to society", although
some would question the wisdom of adding that "very" in a formal
document.
In other words, don't use this collocation of words. It stinks
stylistically.
Here it may stink, but used judiciously in other contexts, though,
it can come up smelling of roses:
Is that gadget of any real use to you?
I can't think of any paraphrase with "useful", rather than "of
use", that would be idiomatic, mean the same and give big clues
about the speaker's attitude in the same way.
|
Why not "Is that gadget really useful to you?" I think it's probably
not as normal as the one you offered, which really cops an attitude
well known around my father's house and mine because we are both pack
rats.
It's a stock idiom, I admit, and standard for speakers and informal
writers. The one I advised against, however, "can be of".
"I wonder if that gadget can be of any real use to you." Maybe "I
wonder if that gadget can be of any real use to him" is more natural
that the former.
One of the things that drives me slightly bats from time to time is the
prediliction of native speakers of Mandarin to use noun phrases instead
of verbs and adjectives, and to say things like "will shed light on"
and "plays a significant role in" and "incubated in the presence of
[chemical X]" and "has gained entrance into modern Mandarin Chinese".
It makes me crazy and forces me to cut and rewrite.
But a good writer or speaker will know when to use such phrases.
Context and desired effect are all. Cyberdude is still learning and
cannot distinguish between good and bad style yet.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Ian Noble
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:08 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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On 24 Nov 2004 12:25:00 GMT, CyberCypher
<cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Michael wrote on 24 Nov 2004:
Hi,
Is there any difference in meaning for the following two sentences?
"Inventions can be of great benefit to society."
"Inventions can be great benefit to society."
When should "can be of" be used?
If you use "can be" + [noun], you usually have to have a preposition
("of") or an article ("a/an" or "the").
You use "can be of" when you want to be verbose and pretentious. Always
use this kind of phrase to sound pompous and pretentious.
What utter twaddle. It's a perfectly reasonable phrasing, and far |
less contorted than the alternatives.
Regards - Ian |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:03 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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Ian Noble wrote on 25 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | On 24 Nov 2004 12:25:00 GMT, CyberCypher
cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
Michael wrote on 24 Nov 2004:
Hi,
Is there any difference in meaning for the following two
sentences?
"Inventions can be of great benefit to society."
"Inventions can be great benefit to society."
When should "can be of" be used?
If you use "can be" + [noun], you usually have to have a
preposition ("of") or an article ("a/an" or "the").
You use "can be of" when you want to be verbose and pretentious.
Always use this kind of phrase to sound pompous and pretentious.
What utter twaddle. It's a perfectly reasonable phrasing, and far
less contorted than the alternatives.
Regards - Ian
|
Yeah, right. And it's used by people who say things like "What utter
twaddle" and then give you their "regards". Just because you don't
recognize that you are being verbose, pretentious, and pompous when you
write or speak things like "can be of benefit" doesn't mean that others
don't. Get a new sense of aesthetics. And here I'd thought that
Liberace's had died with him.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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On 25 Nov 2004 00:27:04 GMT, CyberCypher
<cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Ian Noble wrote on 25 Nov 2004:
On 24 Nov 2004 12:25:00 GMT, CyberCypher
cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
You use "can be of" when you want to be verbose and pretentious.
Always use this kind of phrase to sound pompous and pretentious.
What utter twaddle. It's a perfectly reasonable phrasing, and far
less contorted than the alternatives.
Regards - Ian
Yeah, right. And it's used by people who say things like "What utter
twaddle" and then give you their "regards". Just because you don't
recognize that you are being verbose, pretentious, and pompous when you
write or speak things like "can be of benefit" doesn't mean that others
don't.
|
Who, other than you? I find nothing wrong with his phrasing, nor is
there anything wrong with "What utter twaddle", if originating from
certain quarters.
You tend to get your dander up, Franke, when there is nothing to
criticize or to be upset about. That, I'm quite sure, cannot be of
benefit to you. Where, this reminds me, is Jan Sand?
--
Charles Riggs
They are no accented letters in my email address |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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Charles Riggs wrote on 25 Nov 2004:
[...]
Where, this reminds me, is Jan Sand?
Let's hope that he is still enjoying life in Finland, was it?
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:14 pm
Post subject: Jan Sand [WAS: Re: Usage of "of" |
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Charles Riggs wrote on 25 Nov 2004:
[...]
Where, this reminds me, is Jan Sand?
Check out his bio at:
http://www.artvilla.com/mair/sandbio.htm
Check out his picture and poetry at:
http://www.poetrylifeandtimes.com/jsand.html
You can email him at the artvilla site.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: Usage of "of" |
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On 25 Nov 2004 16:05:48 GMT, CyberCypher
<cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Charles Riggs wrote on 25 Nov 2004:
[...]
Where, this reminds me, is Jan Sand?
Let's hope that he is still enjoying life in Finland, was it?
|
I hope very much he has started to, but then I'm an optimist.
--
Charles Riggs
They are no accented letters in my email address |
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Charles Riggs
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2004 12:09 am
Post subject: Re: Jan Sand [WAS: Re: Usage of "of" |
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:16:09 +0000 (UTC), CyberCypher
<cybercypher@e-garfield.com> wrote:
Sounds like the Jan I know, all right.
Nice-looking chap. Some of the poems there are cute; I didn't know he
sometimes wrote for children, but then I suspect there are a great
many things we didn't know about Jan.
| Quote: | You can email him at the artvilla site.
|
I tend to get under his skin, so it probably wouldn't be a good idea.
--
Charles Riggs
They are no accented letters in my email address |
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