| Author |
Message |
David Eduardo
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
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"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13s1n0pp0os25bs0t2ri8862eco59mjfru@4ax.com...
| Quote: | don groves writes:
Once they find out that there are no decent jobs for people who can't
speak English, they get pretty strongly motivated. But it would be
easier to cover that in the first place.
|
Not true... at least, there are many exceptions. In the US, Spanish language
media, entertainment and related fields is a huge industry, filled with 6
and 7 figure earners who have no need at all to know English. Similarly, in
many areas like Miami, Houston and LA, there are people involved in
export-import who seldom if ever use English (no drug humor, please) as they
deal exclusively with Latin America. We are talking about hundreds of
thousands of jobs just in these sectors.
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Mxsmanic
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Racist, bigoted comments, free speech, & PC censorship |
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CyberCypher writes:
| Quote: | You don't know anything about California law, do you manic.
|
Actually I do. But you haven't answered my question.
| Quote: | You can
check out the library to see that people in that state have been
prosecuted for "hate speech" (whatever that really means) for sending
racist emails out to a group of people with names indicating a
particular ethnicity (I forget whether it was Asian or Hispanic). Most
hate speech is racist.
|
All hate speech is politically incorrect.
| Quote: | Contract law. Ever been to law school? Ever read a law book?
|
Yes.
| Quote: | Ever read an opinion about the enforceability of contractual
provisions?
|
Yes.
| Quote: | Ever sent a complaint to "abuse@[ISP].com"?
|
Rarely. Such complaints are just discarded.
| Quote: | Ever read those disclaimers?
|
What disclaimers?
| Quote: | Do you know why they're there?
|
Where?
| Quote: | I don't know for certain ...
|
I agree.
| Quote: | You are ill-informed about that. Every public ISP in every country I
know of has prohibitions against certain kinds of speech.
|
Some do, some don't, and the prohibitions are not always the same.
| Quote: | Would you care to specify where I expressed a wish to censor speech
with which I disagree?
|
Your posts have been devoted to it.
| Quote: | I don't remember saying anything like that, and
I think that you are falsely accusing me.
|
You sent e-mail to abuse addresses by your own admission.
| Quote: | I don't particularly appreciate false accusations.
|
So?
| Quote: | I say enough outrageous things on Usenet
that you and others do not have to lie about what I've said to attack
me.
|
I don't lie.
| Quote: | Is that how you read my remarks above?
|
Yes.
| Quote: | You really ought to read again
what I've said and show everyone else here how you managed to come to
that absurd conclusion.
|
Other people can reach their own conclusions without my guidance.
| Quote: | I am certain that you can't successfully defend
that interpretation.
|
I already have.
| Quote: | Yes, and that's because you have demonstrated many times in this thread
and the "spaniards" thread that your reading comprehension is severely
lacking.
|
And you resort to ad hominem when you cannot support your position with
more cogent arguments.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
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David Eduardo
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
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"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:j8s1n0hs1m0lskiga8c31ha0sfi98bn8ed@4ax.com...
| Quote: | David Eduardo writes:
The best possible education would be totally bilingual, with some classes
in
English and some in Spanish, such as nearly all the private schools in
Puerto Rico have.
It would only be best from a linguistic standpoint. From the standpoint
of other subjects to be learned, bilingualism is only an additional
complicating factor that reduces the cognitive capacity available to
study the other subjects.
|
Bilinugal education is pretty much the model for private schools all over
Latin America and many parts of Europe. This concept is very different from
the supposedly transitional "bilingual education" in the US in that it
purposely conducts classes in two or more languages.
Children are quite able to learn and employ multiple languages, especially
if introduced early to the polyglot or bilingual environment. By knowing two
languages well, children actually are more open to new concepts because they
have learned that even language is not absolute.
Early bilinguals tend to have better vocabularies in each language and to be
more expressive (best English language reference is a batch of material on
studies done in Canada in the 70's on this).
| Quote: |
The idea of a monolingual education is not well accepted
by educated Puerto Rican families.
How many of these families don't speak English?
|
Very few. Anyone who can afford a private school in Puerto Rico sends their
children to one... probably a quarter or more of the enrollment is in
non-private schools. About 60% of Puerto Ricans are bilingual or can use
English.
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:56:41 GMT, "David Eduardo"
<amdavid@pacbell.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13s1n0pp0os25bs0t2ri8862eco59mjfru@4ax.com...
don groves writes:
Once they find out that there are no decent jobs for people who can't
speak English, they get pretty strongly motivated. But it would be
easier to cover that in the first place.
Not true... at least, there are many exceptions. In the US, Spanish language
media, entertainment and related fields is a huge industry, filled with 6
and 7 figure earners who have no need at all to know English. Similarly, in
many areas like Miami, Houston and LA, there are people involved in
export-import who seldom if ever use English (no drug humor, please) as they
deal exclusively with Latin America. We are talking about hundreds of
thousands of jobs just in these sectors.
That's rather like telling African-Americans that they don't need an |
education because there's so much money in being a professional
athlete or rap star. Yes, there are opportunities in the media and in
import-export, but the fields are limited and the top of the earnings
pyramid is very small. Even in these fields, fluency is English has
to some advantage. |
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David Eduardo
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
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"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eud2n0depvn4rj8taephsc59k068m9kr21@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:56:41 GMT, "David Eduardo"
amdavid@pacbell.com> wrote:
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13s1n0pp0os25bs0t2ri8862eco59mjfru@4ax.com...
don groves writes:
Once they find out that there are no decent jobs for people who can't
speak English, they get pretty strongly motivated. But it would be
easier to cover that in the first place.
Not true... at least, there are many exceptions. In the US, Spanish
language
media, entertainment and related fields is a huge industry, filled with 6
and 7 figure earners who have no need at all to know English. Similarly,
in
many areas like Miami, Houston and LA, there are people involved in
export-import who seldom if ever use English (no drug humor, please) as
they
deal exclusively with Latin America. We are talking about hundreds of
thousands of jobs just in these sectors.
That's rather like telling African-Americans that they don't need an
education because there's so much money in being a professional
athlete or rap star. Yes, there are opportunities in the media and in
import-export, but the fields are limited and the top of the earnings
pyramid is very small. Even in these fields, fluency is English has
to some advantage.
|
No advantage at all in knowing English. It is a closed group, with no need
for English... just as NY Italian mecdia in the 40's and 50's had no need
for English.
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CyberCypher
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Racist, bigoted comments, free speech, & PC censorship |
|
|
Mxsmanic wrote on 16 Oct 2004:
| Quote: | CyberCypher writes:
You don't know anything about California law, do you manic.
Actually I do. But you haven't answered my question.
You can
check out the library to see that people in that state have been
prosecuted for "hate speech" (whatever that really means) for
sending racist emails out to a group of people with names
indicating a particular ethnicity (I forget whether it was Asian
or Hispanic). Most hate speech is racist.
All hate speech is politically incorrect.
|
Non sequitur. In California, people have been prosecuted for specific
kinds of hate speech.
| Quote: | Contract law. Ever been to law school? Ever read a law book?
Yes.
|
I don't believe you.
| Quote: | Ever read an opinion about the enforceability of contractual
provisions?
Yes.
|
Again, I don't believe you.
| Quote: | Ever sent a complaint to "abuse@[ISP].com"?
Rarely. Such complaints are just discarded.
|
If you've ever sent such a complaint --- and "Rarely" implies that
you have done so on occasion, unless you're lying about that too ---
then you have proved that you are what you believe constitutes a
would-be censor: someone who has "sent email to abuse addresses". You
are hoist by your own petard, mister seasoned debater.
| Quote: | Ever read those disclaimers?
What disclaimers?
|
I may have used the wrong word. Perhaps I should have said "terms of
use". But here is one from the Guardian Unlimited, UK, and the first
paragraph of the term of use contains a disclaimer. Terms (iv)-(vii)
are germane to my argument while supporting your claim that these
prohibitions are not all the same:
http://users.guardian.co.uk/help/article/0,12908,933909,00.html
7. Talk or discussion boards
Users of our site may submit material for publication in various
areas of the site, including our Talk boards. We accept no liability
in respect of any material submitted by users and published by us and
we are not responsible for its content and accuracy.
If you want to submit material to us for publication on the Talk
boards, you may do so on the following terms and conditions:
(i) publication of any material you submit to us will be at our sole
discretion. We reserve the right to make additions or deletions to
the text or graphics prior to publication, or to refuse publication
(ii) you grant us a non-exclusive, perpetual, royalty-free, worldwide
licence to republish any material you submit to us in any format,
including without limitation print and electronic format
(iii) you warrant to us that any material you submit to us is your
own original work and that you own the copyright and any other
relevant rights
(iv) you warrant that the material you submit is not obscene,
offensive, defamatory of any person or otherwise illegal
(v) you agree not to post material which is deliberately intended to
upset other users
(vi) you acknowledge that any breach of these warranties may cause us
damage or loss and you agree to indemnify us in full and permanently
against any third party liabilities, claims, costs, loss or damage we
incur as a result of publishing material you submit to us, including
consequential losses.
(vii) we reserve the right to remove your access to the Talk boards
completely if we believe you are abusing the boards in any way.
All Talk users should read our Talk policy which expands on these
points. The Talk policy can be found as a link from any pages within
the Talk areas of Guardian Unlimited.
| Quote: | Do you know why they're there?
Where?
I don't know for certain ...
I agree.
|
You think you're cute, I know, but you're just demonstrating that
your debating skills are bargain-basement level with this kind of
trash.
| Quote: |
You are ill-informed about that. Every public ISP in every
country I know of has prohibitions against certain kinds of
speech.
Some do, some don't,
|
You are talking though your hat here. You cannot produce evidence of
a single public ISP that doesn't have such a prohibition. You prove
yourself a liar with this kind of trash talk.
| Quote: | and the prohibitions are not always the same.
|
They are similar enough to generalize about.
| Quote: | Would you care to specify where I expressed a wish to censor
speech with which I disagree?
Your posts have been devoted to it.
|
This is not evidence of anything but your distorted opinion. I asked
for specifics and you respond with mud-slinging.
| Quote: | I don't remember saying anything like that, and
I think that you are falsely accusing me.
You sent e-mail to abuse addresses by your own admission.
|
You are lying again. I said "I did send complaints to such an
address" --- complaints in one or two emails to a single abuse
address.
| Quote: | I don't particularly appreciate false accusations.
So?
|
So don't make any more of them.
| Quote: | I say enough outrageous things on Usenet
that you and others do not have to lie about what I've said to
attack me.
I don't lie.
|
You have lied more than once in this post and at least once in your
previous post. You cannot prove that you haven't no matter how much
you deny it.
| Quote: | Is that how you read my remarks above?
Yes.
You really ought to read again what I've said and
show everyone else here how you managed to
come to that absurd conclusion.
Other people can reach their own conclusions without my guidance.
|
Other people don't need your advice about reaching a conclusion, but
I'm sure that they would be interested in seeing how you managed to
twist those words of mine into a call for censorship. You
misrepresented what I said and deleted everything but an out-of-
context phrase to use in a vain attempt to prove yourself clever and
witty.
| Quote: | I am certain that you can't successfully defend
that interpretation.
I already have.
|
You only claim to have done so. You haven't done anything of the
sort.
| Quote: | Yes, and that's because you have demonstrated many times in this
thread and the "spaniards" thread that your reading comprehension
is severely lacking.
And you resort to ad hominem when you cannot support your position
with more cogent arguments.
|
Where?
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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anyonghaseo
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Is anything wrong with being multi-lingual? |
|
|
Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<0cs1n095cn9kcesasqen79sd3kuu74oees@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | anyonghaseo writes:
|
Well, we could be arguing for decades and decades and we will never
agree on certain issues. Playing with words to deviate from the main
topic leads only to more "obscurtism".
When I say american, I mean W.A.S.P and I'm not being a bigot, I'm not
including people of greek, asian, spanish, italian, jewish, mexican,
arabic, araminian.... and this is a general belief in the US.
Since in the US everything is statistically done, let's do a census
and find out which group is multi-lingual or the ones that are the
least to be multi-linguals, it is not a deniable fact that most
americans(born in the us) generally speaking are monolingual, but most
of them are the ones of an anglo-saxon origin, and you don't have to
go three geneartions back, I'm talking about the new generation.
Talking about the younger generation , under 30.
Saying that asians excel better because they are fluent in english is
a pure and plain misconception. Most Asian do not speak one word of
english, they all stick together and work together, mostly in mom-pap
businesses,and they speak their native languages amongst themselves,
take for example the korean community in LA or even the chinese
community, or even the vietnamese, on the other hand you'll find the
children of asian immigrants mostly monolingual , whereas the other US
born children of other immigrants are fluent in both languages, a
hispanic is fluent in both, a french in both, a czeck in both, a
russian in both, an arminian in both, except for asians. By all means
anything can be debatable, I'm just saying what I've been seeing and
experencing.
Now the main topic, do you think teaching the new geneartion an other
language besides english should be mandatory ?
Do you think that being fluent in at least two languages do good or
harm to the future generation.
Apparently, you are arguing the fact that learning an other language
at early age increases the grey matter in the brain, i.e. increases
intelligence.
| Quote: | I mentioned spanish due to the fact that is spoken by at least 35
million people in the US. You are right, I believe that the students
should be given the right to choose their second language.
[...]
Which british are you talking about?, not even one out of 10 speaks an
other language, there are as monolinguals as the americans are.
What happened to the 35 million who spoke Spanish in the preceding
paragraph?
How did they realize it?, to my knowledge there are about 140 or more
languages spoken in Los Angeles alone.
Los Angeles, like the rest of the U.S., is dominated by English.
... USA is by no means a monolingual society ...
It wasn't in your first paragraph, it became so in your second
paragraph, but now it isn't again. You aren't very persuasive if you
continually contradict yourself.
... let's rephrase your statements "The anglo-saxons"
which are the majority tend to be more monolingual people than the
rest, by anglo-saxon I mean any person of a germaic-speaking people
descent (english, german, dutch..) ...
Most Americans are effectively monolingual, whether they are
"anglo-saxons" or not. Those whose ancestors immigrated from
non-"anglo-saxon" areas are also monolingual, after three generations or
so.
Had that "asian" known spanish language, he would've never been a
racist towards the spanish-speaking people, he would've been a much
smarter and a much better person.
Asians in the U.S. know that the path to success and assimilation is
paved with fluency in English. On that point at least, they are a lot
smarter than many Spanish speakers, who prefer to live an illusion.
As a matter a fact according to recent studies , it has been
scientifically proven that knowing a second language at an early age
increases the grey matter in the brain ,i.e, if you want to produce a
more intelligent generation , you must teach them a second language
starting at age 5, otherwise...
No, this has not been proven. It is speculation, like so much
concerning language acquisition. Proving or disproving it would require
highly controlled studies and vivisection, neither of which are
ethically permissible with human subjects.
I also truly believe that knowing an other language besides english
will eventually lead to less descrimnation and less racism, most
people are racists for the simple reason that they are ignorants
towards others people cultures.
Knowing another culture helps; knowing another language doesn't. Many
bigots have learned Greek and Latin throughout the ages.
... it'll be much easier for you to live
next door to a hispanic had you known his/her culture, i.e. his/her
language.
It may be difficult for him to live next to me, though, if he speaks
only Spanish and insists on living in a ghetto of his own creation. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:18 pm
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:18:52 GMT, "David Eduardo"
<amdavid@pacbell.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eud2n0depvn4rj8taephsc59k068m9kr21@4ax.com...
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 14:56:41 GMT, "David Eduardo"
amdavid@pacbell.com> wrote:
"Mxsmanic" <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13s1n0pp0os25bs0t2ri8862eco59mjfru@4ax.com...
don groves writes:
Once they find out that there are no decent jobs for people who can't
speak English, they get pretty strongly motivated. But it would be
easier to cover that in the first place.
Not true... at least, there are many exceptions. In the US, Spanish
language
media, entertainment and related fields is a huge industry, filled with 6
and 7 figure earners who have no need at all to know English. Similarly,
in
many areas like Miami, Houston and LA, there are people involved in
export-import who seldom if ever use English (no drug humor, please) as
they
deal exclusively with Latin America. We are talking about hundreds of
thousands of jobs just in these sectors.
That's rather like telling African-Americans that they don't need an
education because there's so much money in being a professional
athlete or rap star. Yes, there are opportunities in the media and in
import-export, but the fields are limited and the top of the earnings
pyramid is very small. Even in these fields, fluency is English has
to some advantage.
No advantage at all in knowing English. It is a closed group, with no need
for English... just as NY Italian mecdia in the 40's and 50's had no need
for English.
I think that has to be hyperbole. A reporter working for "La Prensa" |
is going to write exclusively in Spanish. That doesn't mean that
there is no advantage in speaking English. Some reporter from "La
Prensa" has be assigned to cover a City Council meeting where there's
to be a debate or vote on an issue that affects the Hispanic
community. The reporter that can cover this situation has an
advantage over the reporter that speaks only Spanish. Being more
versatile, the bi-lingual reporter is more valuable and more
promotable.
Even the import-export employee is likely to have some contact with
English-only speakers in Customs or shipping agents. Again, the more
versatile employee is more valuable and more promotable.
Can the Spanish-only speaker be a valuable employee? Yes, but
versatility adds value. You might say there is no necessity, but I
don't think you can say "no advantage". |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
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|
In article <Xns9584A3B012A3Acctxt2002@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher
at cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com poured forth...
| Quote: | don groves wrote on 16 Oct 2004:
[...]
In addition, many schools will have tutors available. I have done
some tutoring of ESL students at our local community college and
found them to be highly motivated. The opportunities are there if
the students want them, if not, then that's a true failure of the
system.
What system are you referring to? Students nowhere are brought up by
systems but by parents or parent substitutes. If you mean to include
the parents in "the system", I agree. If you mean to exclude them, I
cannot but disagree. I have to include every student's culture and
its values too. Students acquire their most important personal values
from their parents, I believe, but they also acquire a host of other
values from their immediate environment, and that means the cultural
values of the culture in which they are raised. I tend to blame the
students and their parents when EFL students don't take advantage of
the educational opportunities afforded them, not some vague,
ambiguous "system". One cannot teach anything to anyone unwilling to
learn.
|
By "system" I meant the local education system. If certain
classes are not offered, like ESL in a district with a moderate
to high Hispanic population, then that is a systemic failure,
imho, the school district is failing to provide what the
community needs.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:00 am
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
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|
In article <svr1n0dc022p2qusggrddiqds0ueevfkv3@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
at mxsmanic@hotmail.com poured forth...
| Quote: | don groves writes:
I won't argue that. I assume we're talking about high school
graduates when you say "come out of school" and I see no reason
why a student who applies herself can't have learned a lot of
English as an ESL student by that time.
A high-school graduate needs perfect fluency in English, not just "a lot
of English." At least if she wants any kind of decent job.
|
Based on my experience with recent high-school graduates, at most
20% of native-born English speakers have "perfect fluency" in
English. I serve on a scholarship committee for a local company
and every year we read through dozens of applications. The level
of English fluency ranges from excellent to poor, and these are
students who are applying at universities.
For those seeking jobs directly out of high school and not going
on to college, most of the people they will be competing against
for those jobs won't have any better command of English than the
ESL students.
| Quote: | Many native-born US
students are fairly fluent in a foreign language by graduation
without being taught in that language exclusively.
Maybe, but their future livelihood and standard of living doesn't depend
on fluency in that foreign language, it depends on fluency in their
native language. For non-English-speaking persons, the situation is
reversed, and so "fairly fluent" just won't cut it.
|
See above.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:09 am
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
|
|
In article <13s1n0pp0os25bs0t2ri8862eco59mjfru@4ax.com>, Mxsmanic
at mxsmanic@hotmail.com poured forth...
| Quote: | don groves writes:
I would say an ESL student should be able to read and comprehend
much of a daily paper in English by graduation if they apply
themselves. Of course this assumes the schools are offering three
or more years of ESL.
What reason do they have to apply themselves, if the only place in which
they use English is the ESL class?
|
To learn English, obviously. You seem to have an exceedingly low
opinion of Hispanic students. The ones I've worked with have been
highly motivated to learn English. Many speak Spanish on their
jobs because they must to communicate quickly enough to get
things done and that doesn't stop them from taking ESL classes to
better their chances of fully integrating into US society.
Taking classes in Spanish wouldn't stop them from learning
English either.
| Quote: | Most students will not have the foresight to realize that they will need
complete fluency in English to succeed in the American mainstream, and
so if they are not forced to acquire it by being taught in English, they
will be at a (possibly permanent) disadvantage by graduation.
In addition, many schools will have tutors available. I have done
some tutoring of ESL students at our local community college and
found them to be highly motivated.
Once they find out that there are no decent jobs for people who can't
speak English, they get pretty strongly motivated. But it would be
easier to cover that in the first place.
|
First you talk about "complete fluency", then "can't speak
English". That's a huge chasm you're glossing over.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
|
|
don groves wrote on 17 Oct 2004:
[...]
| Quote: | By "system" I meant the local education system. If certain
classes are not offered, like ESL in a district with a moderate
to high Hispanic population, then that is a systemic failure,
imho, the school district is failing to provide what the
community needs.
|
I'm not sure that's true. My #1 son used to be a bilingual Spanish-
English teacher at a south-central LA elementary school. The K-1-2
kids he taught spoke almost no English, and their parents spoke
almost no English. The neighborhoods the kids came from were pretty
much Hispanophone. The parents of the kids my son taught were not the
kind of people who would encourage their kids to speak English or to
do well in school, according to my son, who met many of them --- at
least those who were not in prison at the moment.
I don't believe that the government or the schools can raise kids,
and I don't think that schools are very motivating places for kids,
especially recently for American kids, and probably not at all for
American kids whose parents are relatively uneducated, not anglophone
themselves, involved in gangs, drugs, and organized crime, and often
in jail. When those kids my son taught went home, they had no one to
speak English with, only Spanish. And in LA, there is sufficient
Spanish media programming that Hispanophones never have to learn
English.
I don't think that's the schools' fault, but I'd agree that it's the
larger system's fault. My Italian peasant grandparents arrived in the
USA as monolinguals, but the 9 of their 13 children that I knew all
spoke fluent English and Italian and lived Italian-American lives,
except for my mother, who for some reason wanted to be German, so she
never spoke Italian though she understood it perfectly, and she lived
an unhyphenated-American life. Her family did not live in a
segregated monolingual community and neither she nor her brothers and
sisters went to bilingual schools. They had no choice but to learn
English.
While I agree fully that a bilingual education is better than a
monolingual education --- and my #2 son's education has been tri-
lingual from birth (Taiwanese, Mandarin, English) --- I know he
wouldn't be speaking English if I spoke to him and his mother in
Chinese or Taiwanese only. To some extent, the American federal and
state governments and the public schools that publish everything in
languages other than English provide a disservice to immigrant
children who don't have the benefits of multilingual, multicultural
families and neighbors. By endorsing the idea that the governments
and the schools should do everything possible to help students
maintain their cultural heritage at the taxpayers' expense, they
subsidize and otherwise contribute to the perpetuation linguistic and
cultural ghettos all over America.
I don't advocate that English become the official language of the
USA, but after 33 years of teaching ESL, EFL, and English literature
to people between the ages of 13 and 72 in the USA, Japan, and
Taiwan, and having studied 8 or 9 languages (I didn't learn all of
them well enough to speak or understand them at survival levels, only
English, French, German, and Japanese) I think I have enough
experience in language classrooms, with language students, and with
language learning to know that motivation is the key factor. People
are motivated to learn foreign languages for only a few reasons: they
have to (the way I had to learn Japanese because almost nobody at the
high school I taught at in Tokyo spoke English) or they want to for
any number of reasons, but mostly because they have been motivated to
learn by the example of their parents and other family members.
I don't know what the schools could provide those K-1-2 kids my #1
taught to make them want to learn English. It's hard enough to
motivate many native anglophones to learn educated English,
especially if they're convinced they will never need it or that they
can make more money selling drugs or boosting fancy cars than working
in a bank or an insurance company.
What should the school districts provide besides the opportunity to
get a free and useful education?
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:38 am
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
|
|
In article <Xns95851C6373F22cctxt2002@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher
at cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com poured forth...
| Quote: | don groves wrote on 17 Oct 2004:
[...]
By "system" I meant the local education system. If certain
classes are not offered, like ESL in a district with a moderate
to high Hispanic population, then that is a systemic failure,
imho, the school district is failing to provide what the
community needs.
I'm not sure that's true. My #1 son used to be a bilingual Spanish-
English teacher at a south-central LA elementary school. The K-1-2
kids he taught spoke almost no English, and their parents spoke
almost no English. The neighborhoods the kids came from were pretty
much Hispanophone. The parents of the kids my son taught were not the
kind of people who would encourage their kids to speak English or to
do well in school, according to my son, who met many of them --- at
least those who were not in prison at the moment.
I don't believe that the government or the schools can raise kids,
and I don't think that schools are very motivating places for kids,
especially recently for American kids, and probably not at all for
American kids whose parents are relatively uneducated, not anglophone
themselves, involved in gangs, drugs, and organized crime, and often
in jail. When those kids my son taught went home, they had no one to
speak English with, only Spanish. And in LA, there is sufficient
Spanish media programming that Hispanophones never have to learn
English.
I don't think that's the schools' fault, but I'd agree that it's the
larger system's fault. My Italian peasant grandparents arrived in the
USA as monolinguals, but the 9 of their 13 children that I knew all
spoke fluent English and Italian and lived Italian-American lives,
except for my mother, who for some reason wanted to be German, so she
never spoke Italian though she understood it perfectly, and she lived
an unhyphenated-American life. Her family did not live in a
segregated monolingual community and neither she nor her brothers and
sisters went to bilingual schools. They had no choice but to learn
English.
While I agree fully that a bilingual education is better than a
monolingual education --- and my #2 son's education has been tri-
lingual from birth (Taiwanese, Mandarin, English) --- I know he
wouldn't be speaking English if I spoke to him and his mother in
Chinese or Taiwanese only. To some extent, the American federal and
state governments and the public schools that publish everything in
languages other than English provide a disservice to immigrant
children who don't have the benefits of multilingual, multicultural
families and neighbors. By endorsing the idea that the governments
and the schools should do everything possible to help students
maintain their cultural heritage at the taxpayers' expense, they
subsidize and otherwise contribute to the perpetuation linguistic and
cultural ghettos all over America.
|
These ghettos do exist but I don't think government endorsement
of maintaining cultural heritage is the main culprit. People tend
to gather with their own, particularly when they are newly
arrived in a foreign land, for many reasons: family; friendships;
business opportunities...
Also, we need to be careful of moving too far in the opposite
direction and destroying culural heritages in a misguided effort
to blend everyone into uniformity.
| Quote: | I don't advocate that English become the official language of the
USA, but after 33 years of teaching ESL, EFL, and English literature
to people between the ages of 13 and 72 in the USA, Japan, and
Taiwan, and having studied 8 or 9 languages (I didn't learn all of
them well enough to speak or understand them at survival levels, only
English, French, German, and Japanese) I think I have enough
experience in language classrooms, with language students, and with
language learning to know that motivation is the key factor. People
are motivated to learn foreign languages for only a few reasons: they
have to (the way I had to learn Japanese because almost nobody at the
high school I taught at in Tokyo spoke English) or they want to for
any number of reasons, but mostly because they have been motivated to
learn by the example of their parents and other family members.
I don't know what the schools could provide those K-1-2 kids my #1
taught to make them want to learn English. It's hard enough to
motivate many native anglophones to learn educated English,
especially if they're convinced they will never need it or that they
can make more money selling drugs or boosting fancy cars than working
in a bank or an insurance company.
|
My experience nowhere near matches yours, obviously. As I said
before, the ESL students I have worked with have all been highly
motivated to learn English. As for reasons, on-the-job
communication and classroom comprehension are probably the most
frequent.
| Quote: | What should the school districts provide besides the opportunity to
get a free and useful education?
|
Nothing, but what does a "useful" education mean if not access to
subjects that are socially and vocationally important?
Basic computer literacy has become very important. Any school
district that does not offer this instruction is failing their
community, imho. The same goes for language and other social
areas.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mxsmanic
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:27 am
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
|
|
Tony Cooper writes:
| Quote: | That's rather like telling African-Americans that they don't need an
education because there's so much money in being a professional
athlete or rap star.
|
Exactly. Why settle for a slice of the pie when it's so easy to have
the whole thing? Just learn English.
--
Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CyberCypher
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:58 am
Post subject: Re: Why is it that only the spanish culture can't learn the |
|
|
don groves wrote on 17 Oct 2004:
| Quote: | In article <Xns95851C6373F22cctxt2002@130.133.1.4>, CyberCypher
at cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com poured forth...
don groves wrote on 17 Oct 2004:
[...]
By "system" I meant the local education system. If certain
classes are not offered, like ESL in a district with a moderate
to high Hispanic population, then that is a systemic failure,
imho, the school district is failing to provide what the
community needs.
I'm not sure that's true. My #1 son used to be a bilingual
Spanish- English teacher at a south-central LA elementary school.
The K-1-2 kids he taught spoke almost no English, and their
parents spoke almost no English. The neighborhoods the kids came
from were pretty much Hispanophone. The parents of the kids my
son taught were not the kind of people who would encourage their
kids to speak English or to do well in school, according to my
son, who met many of them --- at least those who were not in
prison at the moment.
I don't believe that the government or the schools can raise
kids, and I don't think that schools are very motivating places
for kids, especially recently for American kids, and probably not
at all for American kids whose parents are relatively uneducated,
not anglophone themselves, involved in gangs, drugs, and
organized crime, and often in jail. When those kids my son taught
went home, they had no one to speak English with, only Spanish.
And in LA, there is sufficient Spanish media programming that
Hispanophones never have to learn English.
I don't think that's the schools' fault, but I'd agree that it's
the larger system's fault. My Italian peasant grandparents
arrived in the USA as monolinguals, but the 9 of their 13
children that I knew all spoke fluent English and Italian and
lived Italian-American lives, except for my mother, who for some
reason wanted to be German, so she never spoke Italian though she
understood it perfectly, and she lived an unhyphenated-American
life. Her family did not live in a segregated monolingual
community and neither she nor her brothers and sisters went to
bilingual schools. They had no choice but to learn English.
While I agree fully that a bilingual education is better than a
monolingual education --- and my #2 son's education has been tri-
lingual from birth (Taiwanese, Mandarin, English) --- I know he
wouldn't be speaking English if I spoke to him and his mother in
Chinese or Taiwanese only. To some extent, the American federal
and state governments and the public schools that publish
everything in languages other than English provide a disservice
to immigrant children who don't have the benefits of
multilingual, multicultural families and neighbors. By endorsing
the idea that the governments and the schools should do
everything possible to help students maintain their cultural
heritage at the taxpayers' expense, they subsidize and otherwise
contribute to the perpetuation linguistic and cultural ghettos
all over America.
These ghettos do exist but I don't think government endorsement
of maintaining cultural heritage is the main culprit. People tend
to gather with their own, particularly when they are newly
arrived in a foreign land, for many reasons: family; friendships;
business opportunities...
Also, we need to be careful of moving too far in the opposite
direction and destroying culural heritages in a misguided effort
to blend everyone into uniformity.
I don't advocate that English become the official language of the
USA, but after 33 years of teaching ESL, EFL, and English
literature to people between the ages of 13 and 72 in the USA,
Japan, and Taiwan, and having studied 8 or 9 languages (I didn't
learn all of them well enough to speak or understand them at
survival levels, only English, French, German, and Japanese) I
think I have enough experience in language classrooms, with
language students, and with language learning to know that
motivation is the key factor. People are motivated to learn
foreign languages for only a few reasons: they have to (the way I
had to learn Japanese because almost nobody at the high school I
taught at in Tokyo spoke English) or they want to for any number
of reasons, but mostly because they have been motivated to learn
by the example of their parents and other family members.
I don't know what the schools could provide those K-1-2 kids my
#1 taught to make them want to learn English. It's hard enough to
motivate many native anglophones to learn educated English,
especially if they're convinced they will never need it or that
they can make more money selling drugs or boosting fancy cars
than working in a bank or an insurance company.
My experience nowhere near matches yours, obviously. As I said
before, the ESL students I have worked with have all been highly
motivated to learn English. As for reasons, on-the-job
communication and classroom comprehension are probably the most
frequent.
|
When I taught ESL at the College of Marin, Kentfield, CA, USA, my
experience was also that immigrants to the US wanted very much to
become proficient in English because they wanted to have better work
experiences and better jobs, better communication with the
anglophone-only communities they came into contact with, and better
communication with their ESL classmates and teachers. I'm not
faulting the immigrants who bother to come to ESL classes on their
own volition. They are great students and hard workers.
One poster here --- might be a Korean-American --- has claimed that
based on his experience in LA, a great many of the children of Asian
immigrants don't bother to learn English because they live in
ethnically and linguistically homogenous ghettos and seem to expect
to work in the family business in that neighborhood for the rest of
their lives.
I think it's difficult, if not impossible, to make meaningful
generalizations about any particular immigrant group nation-wide in
the US. It might be possible to do so about a particular population
in a specific neighborhood, though. But I've been away from the US
for so many years that I can't say anything about its immigrants or
citizens other than what I read in the papers or hear on the news or
pick up in my visits to my friends and family every other year or so,
but then it's only the West Coast, very brief, and obviously
superficial.
| Quote: | What should the school districts provide besides the opportunity
to get a free and useful education?
Nothing, but what does a "useful" education mean if not access to
subjects that are socially and vocationally important?
|
Aye. There's the rub. Things change so radically so quickly these
days that it's difficult to convince young people, in particular,
that something is socially and vocationally important. Some school
teachers still think that languages and literature and art and music
are important for the growing mind, but administrators believe
otherwise: basic skills and teaching to those basic-skills tests seem
to be taking all the honors and the cash these days. Here in Taiwan,
for instance, kids don't understand why they have to learn Chinese
history and the constitution of the Republic of China, or why, if
they are not going to be engineers, they have to learn anything about
science or math or economics, especially if they want to become
English teachers or open a clothing boutique or a coffee shop. And
they don't see their parents reading books, only watching TV after a
hard and boring day at work. And employers hardly seem interested in
anyone's outside-the-job-description skills, because everything is so
technical these days.
| Quote: | Basic computer literacy has become very important. Any school
district that does not offer this instruction is failing their
community, imho. The same goes for language and other social
areas.
|
I agree with both points, and it is being offered here in Taiwan, but
it doesn't make learning fun or interesting for Taiwan's students.
In America, when I was a high school student 50 years ago, we had to
study two foreign languages in high school to be accepted by a good
college. After I graduated and the '60s and '70s happened, though,
language education was phased out in favor of godknowswhat.
I don't think the schools are the right vector for socially and
vocationally useful education as long as parents don't give a damn,
teachers get no respect for what they might be capable of doing for
their charges, and government uses the carrot of federal and state
funding to ensure high scores on standardized tests only.
I also don't think a single institution will solve the problem. It's
societal and cultural. The differences in values between today's
youngsters and their well-educated teachers is too great, it seems to
me, to bridge for most. And there's too much emphasis on equality of
academic (versus vocational) outcome for everyone in the system, a
focus that leads only to intellectual mediocrity and quashes
excellence in fields that aren't measured by the SATs and GREs.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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