| Author |
Message |
meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:56 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:36:06 +0100 david56
<bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> posted:
| Quote: |
I would say that "kit" is any clothing worn for sport, e.g. the stuff
you wear at school or to go running. "strip" to me is branded for
the team who are playing in it.
|
An interesting definition:
kit
n. [Usenet; poss. fr. DEC slang for a full software
distribution, as opposed to a patch or upgrade] A source software
distribution that has been packaged in such a way that it can
(theoretically) be unpacked and installed according to a series of
steps using only standard Unix tools, and entirely documented by
some reasonable chain of references from the top-level README
file. The more general term distribution may imply that special
tools or more stringent conditions on the host environment are
required.
Source: Jargon File 4.2.0
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bafb29d894c7d9f98a7f9@news.individual.net...
| Quote: | Peter T. Daniels typed thus:
Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:37:24 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:
"Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have
handy.
BrE desk dictionaries: Collins 1992 "the clothes worn by the members
of a
team, esp. a football team" / Chambers 1992 "light garb for running,
football, etc."
Clearly I need more recent desk dictionaries.
In British novels it seems to be called "kit."
I would say that "kit" is any clothing worn for sport, e.g. the stuff
you wear at school or to go running. "strip" to me is branded for
the team who are playing in it.
Kit can also mean just "clothes" but only in some circumstances.
"Get your kit off" is an invitation to undress. Playboy shows photos
of women "with their kit off".
|
As a military term, "kit" is all the personal bits and pieces (including a
change of clothes, but also e.g. his mug and cutlery) that a serviceman may
carry in his kitbag or backpack when leaving barracks for camp. In a BrE
school sense, "kit" includes sports clothes as David says, and also the
things such as a towel and deodorant that a boy may need to carry if there
is PE or games that day. "Kit" includes footwear, which "strip" doesn't.
"Kit" can also mean a complete set of the components needed for a hobby
project, and a parent who says "Have you got all your kit together for
tomorrow?" means simply "Everything you will need at school". Truly an
all-purpose word, and one that I suppose exists in AmE in at least some of
these senses.
Alan Jones |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:21 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: |
In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:36:06 +0100 david56
bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> posted:
I would say that "kit" is any clothing worn for sport, e.g. the stuff
you wear at school or to go running. "strip" to me is branded for
the team who are playing in it.
An interesting definition:
kit
n. [Usenet; poss. fr. DEC slang for a full software
distribution, as opposed to a patch or upgrade] A source software
distribution that has been packaged in such a way that it can
(theoretically) be unpacked and installed according to a series of
steps using only standard Unix tools, and entirely documented by
some reasonable chain of references from the top-level README
file. The more general term distribution may imply that special
tools or more stringent conditions on the host environment are
required.
Source: Jargon File 4.2.0
|
How is that jargon, or even a specialized usage? That's nothing but the
ordinary meaning of "kit" -- the summer before I went to college, in
1968, I built my first amplifier from a Heathkit amplifier kit. (I
didn't even have to buy a new toolkit, just a soldering iron.)
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:23 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: |
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bafb29d894c7d9f98a7f9@news.individual.net...
Peter T. Daniels typed thus:
Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:37:24 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk
wrote:
"Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have
handy.
BrE desk dictionaries: Collins 1992 "the clothes worn by the members
of a
team, esp. a football team" / Chambers 1992 "light garb for running,
football, etc."
Clearly I need more recent desk dictionaries.
In British novels it seems to be called "kit."
I would say that "kit" is any clothing worn for sport, e.g. the stuff
you wear at school or to go running. "strip" to me is branded for
the team who are playing in it.
Kit can also mean just "clothes" but only in some circumstances.
"Get your kit off" is an invitation to undress. Playboy shows photos
of women "with their kit off".
As a military term, "kit" is all the personal bits and pieces (including a
change of clothes, but also e.g. his mug and cutlery) that a serviceman may
carry in his kitbag or backpack when leaving barracks for camp. In a BrE
school sense, "kit" includes sports clothes as David says, and also the
things such as a towel and deodorant that a boy may need to carry if there
is PE or games that day. "Kit" includes footwear, which "strip" doesn't.
"Kit" can also mean a complete set of the components needed for a hobby
project, and a parent who says "Have you got all your kit together for
tomorrow?" means simply "Everything you will need at school". Truly an
all-purpose word, and one that I suppose exists in AmE in at least some of
these senses.
|
In _only_ some of these senses.
"Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag" was as opaque as the later
line "While you've a Lucifer to light your fag."
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:33 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:18:22 +0100 John McLeod
<john@pagat.demon.co.uk> posted:
| Quote: |
2. Kanasta cards have 'French' suits, including 'piky' (spades).
|
With a K? Canasta is basket in Spanish.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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John McLeod
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:24 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:18:22 +0100 John McLeod
john@pagat.demon.co.uk> posted:
2. Kanasta cards have 'French' suits, including 'piky' (spades).
With a K?
|
Kanasta is the Czech word for Canasta, used there both for the card game
and the type of cards needed to play it.
| Quote: | Canasta is basket in Spanish.
|
- and it is the name of a card game invented in Montevideo around 1940,
which became highly fashionable world-wide in the 1950's and is still
quite popular in many places.
--
John McLeod For information on card games visit
john@pagat.com http://www.pagat.com/ |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:14 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:21:58 GMT "Peter T.
Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> posted:
| Quote: | meirman wrote:
In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:36:06 +0100 david56
bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> posted:
I would say that "kit" is any clothing worn for sport, e.g. the stuff
you wear at school or to go running. "strip" to me is branded for
the team who are playing in it.
An interesting definition:
kit
n. [Usenet; poss. fr. DEC slang for a full software
distribution, as opposed to a patch or upgrade] A source software
distribution that has been packaged in such a way that it can
(theoretically) be unpacked and installed according to a series of
steps using only standard Unix tools, and entirely documented by
some reasonable chain of references from the top-level README
file. The more general term distribution may imply that special
tools or more stringent conditions on the host environment are
required.
Source: Jargon File 4.2.0
How is that jargon, or even a specialized usage? That's nothing but the
|
I don't know how. I"m just quoting.
| Quote: | ordinary meaning of "kit" -- the summer before I went to college, in
1968, I built my first amplifier from a Heathkit amplifier kit. (I
didn't even have to buy a new toolkit, just a soldering iron.)
|
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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meirman
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:24:55 +0100 John McLeod
<john@pagat.demon.co.uk> posted:
| Quote: | On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote:
In alt.english.usage on Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:18:22 +0100 John McLeod
john@pagat.demon.co.uk> posted:
2. Kanasta cards have 'French' suits, including 'piky' (spades).
With a K?
Kanasta is the Czech word for Canasta, used there both for the card game
and the type of cards needed to play it.
|
OK. I forgot that McLeod is a Czech name.
;)
| Quote: | Canasta is basket in Spanish.
- and it is the name of a card game invented in Montevideo around 1940,
which became highly fashionable world-wide in the 1950's and is still
quite popular in many places.
|
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Daniel James
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In article news:<yIj1d.481$846.100@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Jones
wrote:
| Quote: | In a BrE school sense, "kit" includes sports clothes as David
says, and also the things such as a towel and deodorant that
a boy may need to carry if there is PE or games that day.
|
Eh? "deodorant"? Schoolboys using deodorant? Which planet did you grow up on,
Alan?
| Quote: | "Kit" includes footwear, which "strip" doesn't.
|
"Kit" certainly does include footwear. I suspect "strip" does if the footwear
in question is of a distinctive colour/style, or (perhaps more importantly,
these days) carries the emblem of a sponsor.
The thing that "kit" says most strongly to me is that it is a complete set of
parts (garments, tools, etc.) for a particular task or purpose -- and this
seems to be borne out by the dictionary. I'm fairly sure that my first
exposure to the word was in the context of a "construction kit" for a model
of some sort (which, paradoxically, were often not complete, and one had to
send off by post for the missing bits).
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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"Daniel James" <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote in message
news:VA.000008b0.666a2f97@nospam.aaisp.org...
| Quote: | In article news:<yIj1d.481$846.100@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Jones
wrote:
In a BrE school sense, "kit" includes sports clothes as David
says, and also the things such as a towel and deodorant that
a boy may need to carry if there is PE or games that day.
Eh? "deodorant"? Schoolboys using deodorant? Which planet did you grow up
on,
Alan?
|
Perhaps I was lucky with the boys I taught.. My fifth. and later sixth,
formers, who strewed their kit all over the form room, certainly had
deodorants and often battery shavers (which some needed and others didn't
but liked to think they did). By and large, they were rather fussy about
that sort of thing, especially if they were meeting their girls after games
afternoon.
It's true that on the planet I grew up on, generally known as "The 1940s",
we didn't even have showers at school. I suppose we got used to the smells;
those were the days when not every home had a bathroom. We were better off
than some, though when I was very young my dad still had to use a tin bath
in front of the kitchen fire to get the day's filth off. Later we graduated
to a "modern" range for cooking, behind which a boiler heated water more
plentifully than could a series of kettles, and had the back bedroom
converted to a bathroom. The real luxury was to have at last an indoor loo:
no more trips across the yard.
Those days seem incredibly distant. I've just remembered that we didn't get
electricity upstairs until I was in my teens, so I read in bed by
candlelight.
Alan Jones |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:36 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on 13 Sep 2004 07:03:32 -0700
tarotica@jktarot.com (jk) posted:
| Quote: | meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in message news:<tri9k05ivq5l34ose76hpi3thlh5u5cbed@4ax.com>...
In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles". Possibly
What is a pantacle?
In magickal usage, pantacle is a consecrated embodiment of some power.
So, a pentacle is a pantacle, that is a five-pointed star on a disk, as you
see in some Tarot card suits, is a magickal device, one principally
devoted to rooting things in material terms---something like a
matrix---that is manifestation. But a pantacle can be something much
more than that, representing a complete symbol for the Magus' life and
power. In that case, to simplify, it is rather like a nametag, or you
might say the title of a playing card.
due to a conflation of the last term with "pentangle", in some Tarot
More important, how is Tarot pronounced. Is the final T silent, or
not?
The word is French, so "TAR-oh". Silent last "t".
|
Thanks.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:57 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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|
In article news:<hcA1d.9108$_66.465@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Alan Jones
wrote:
| Quote: | Eh? "deodorant"? Schoolboys using deodorant? Which planet did you grow up
on, Alan?
Perhaps I was lucky with the boys I taught.
|
Oh, "taught". You clearly have more recent experience of the ways of
schoolboys than I have. The present is another country, they do things
differently there.
| Quote: | ... battery shavers ...
|
Why on earth would anyone wish to shave a battery?
| Quote: | By and large, they were rather fussy about that sort of thing, especially
if they were meeting their girls after games afternoon.
|
Ah, girls. I don't think I met any of those until I went to university. Maybe
the present has something going for it after all?
| Quote: | It's true that on the planet I grew up on, generally known as "The 1940s",
we didn't even have showers at school.
|
We had showers, but were seldom left enough time to use them after PE before
the next lesson. The changing rooms at the local playing fields (whch our
school shared with at least one other) had no showers, as far as I can recall,
but I was lucky only ever to have to go there in the afternoon so I could go
straight home and have a bath. I believe some classes had games in the morning
and lessons in the afternoon without an opportunity to wash in between.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Xenia
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:31 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message news:<413FB971.72B95CEF@yahoo-dot.ca>...
| Quote: |
Does the Russian _krasnoye_ (sorry if that's a poor transliteration),
as in the name of Moscow's Red Square, refer to a slightly different
colour than do the 'worm' words?
|
No it doesn't
| Quote: | I ask because English "vermilion"
describes a bright, orangey red (like "scarlet" but more so), while
"crimson" and "carmine", whose etymology also refers to the insect --
by a name ultimately derived from Arabic, anglicized to "kermes" --
|
The correct Russian translation of "vermillon" is "sharlakhovyi". The
word is cognate to English "scarlet" but has the same meaning as
"vermilion".
Xenia |
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