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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on 12 Sep 2004 00:43:50 -0700 yaroslavl@gmail.com
(Igor Sklar) posted:
| Quote: | dgshhfhfhd@voila.fr (Mistranslator) wrote...
yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
What about Old Indian <krsnah> = black?
I believe any resemblance between "krsnah" and "krasnyi" is
accidental. Sans. krsnah is cognate with Lith kersas ('piebald'),
Prus. kirsnan ('black'), Old Slav. *c'rxn, whence Russ. chernyi
('black'), Ukr. chornyi, Bulg. cheren, Cz. cerny, Pol. czarny.
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While driving through West Virginia, we saw a billboard for the Hare
Krishnas (same root?) and saw that it was their US headquarters. So
it was close and we went and took their little tour. At the end of the
tour, the guide said that the words Krishna and Christ were closely
related. I asked him what krishna meant, and he may have said
beautiful or black, I don't recall. But what ever it was had nothing
to do with christ, and I told him and the tour group that. The
statement was made to imply and try to convince kids raised in
Christian homes that they wouldn't be abandoning Chistianity if they
joined the Hare Krishnas.
At the very end of the tour, some kid came and offered brownies, but
no one would take any.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:20 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:38:51 GMT Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
| Quote: | Paul J Kriha wrote:
The terminology around tarrot card games is quite interesting in its own right.
I think it spread from West (from France through Germany, Bohemia, etc)
to the East. It seems that R. preserved the older style names.
Tarrot card diamonds are actually round shapes signifying money. In modern
Czech they are called spheres ('kule'). Canasta (or bridge) card diamonds
are called 'ka'ry'. I have no idea what that means.
In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles". Possibly
|
What is a pantacle?
| Quote: | due to a conflation of the last term with "pentangle", in some Tarot
|
More important, how is Tarot pronounced. Is the final T silent, or
not?
| Quote: | decks they're depicted with pentagrams on them.
[snip]
|
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Paul J Kriha
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:21 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message news:41448A39.E5BF0733@yahoo-dot.ca...
| Quote: | Paul J Kriha wrote:
|
[...]
| Quote: | If I've followed you correctly so far, the 'small' suits in a
Bohemian tarot deck include spheres, leaves, and acorns. What's the
fourth, corresponding to hearts: is it "cups" as in the west?
Odysseus
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No, it's not cups, it's reds, or hearts.
The suits are (in the descending order of importance):
c^erveny' or srdce (reds or hearts)
kule (spheres) (nb. literary correct word is koule)
zeleny' (greens)
z^aludy (acorns)
The actual graphical design of the cards is similar to German Tarots.
Paul JK
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Paul J Kriha
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:36 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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John McLeod <john@pagat.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:9nTYstiWZMRBFwTr@pagat.demon.co.uk...
| Quote: | There seems to be some confusion in these posts between the German and
Italian suit systems.
Tarot cards (until the mid 18th century everywhere, and to this day in
Italy and Switzerland) use the Italian suit system in which the suits
are swords, batons, cups and coins. Ordinary Bohemian cards use the
German suit system of acorns, leaves, hearts and bells (this is a
32-card deck with 8 cards in each of these suits). Based on usage in
card games, the normal correspondence between German, French and Italian
suits is
acorns : clubs : batons
leaves : spades : swords
hearts : hearts : cups
bells : diamonds : coins
The bells in the German suit system are spherical, and in some Central
European countries the symbol is interpreted as representing balls or
gourds: it is also of course much the same shape as a coin.
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
Paul J Kriha wrote:
The terminology around tarrot card games is quite interesting in its
own right.
I think it spread from West (from France through Germany, Bohemia, etc)
to the East. It seems that R. preserved the older style names.
Tarrot card diamonds are actually round shapes signifying money. In modern
Czech they are called spheres ('kule'). Canasta (or bridge) card diamonds
are called 'ka'ry'. I have no idea what that means.
ka'ry' is certainly derived from the French carreau, the ordinary French
word for the suit of diamonds.
In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles". Possibly
due to a conflation of the last term with "pentangle", in some Tarot
decks they're depicted with pentagrams on them.
Only on fortune telling decks. Tarot decks for play have coins.
The tarrot spades (in fact leaves) used to look like sticks and were called
sticks. Later they seemed to grow more leaves and eventually became
just green leaves. The modern Bohemian name is greens ('zeleny'').
There are no leaves in a tarot deck; modern French suited tarot (taroky)
decks as used in the south and east parts of the Czech Republic
(Moravia) have spades (Czech piky). Italian suited tarot cards have
swords.
|
I think here you mixing up two different sets of cards.
'Maria's^' cards have greens. 'Kanasta' cards have piky.
| Quote: | In all the
traditional Tarot decks I've seen, the suit equivalent to spades is
"swords" -- as the etymology would imply.
Agreed.
The tarrot acorns still look quite clearly like acorns and the current
Bohemian name is acorns ('z^aludy').
There are no acorns in a tarot deck: the corresponding suit is clubs
(French suits) or batons (Italian suits).
If I've followed you correctly so far, the 'small' suits in a
Bohemian tarot deck include spheres, leaves, and acorns. What's the
fourth, corresponding to hearts: is it "cups" as in the west?
The fourth suit in ordinary Bohemian decks is hearts.
Since Italian suited cards were used in Bohemia until relatively
recently (the 36-card S'pa'dy karty) and both French and Ger5man suited
cards are in current use it is easy to find the Czech names for the four
suits in all three systems.
German:
acorns = z'aludy : leaves = zelene' : hearts = c'ervene' : bells = kule
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These names would be used for the 32 card set.
| Quote: | French:
clubs = kr'i'z'e : spades = piky : hearts = srdce : diamonds = ka'ry
|
These names are used for the 52 (or 104) card set plus jokers.
| Quote: | Italian:
batons = bas'tony : swords = s'pa'dy : cups = kopy : coins = dena'ry
Source:
Toma's' SVOBODA: Oficia'lni' Pravidla Karetni'ch Her - page 20.
(Eminent, Prague, 2002. ISBN 80-7281-116-8)
Hope this helps.
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Excellent.
PJK
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:37 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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"Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:v319k0dmuku9ba3gsn2cniqqa4aj2ft4fk@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:23:54 -0400, "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:22:23 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:41443F7E.424@worldnet.att.net> in
alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
Alan Jones wrote:
[...]
I first knew of "claret" as a colour name in the context of
professional
soccer (BrE "football"). The colours of the Aston Villa strip {do USans
use
"strip" for the distinguishing clothes worn by a sports team when
playing?)
Not only do we not use it, it's completely opaque.
"Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have handy.
I have always assumed that it derives from the notion of stripping-off,
undressing. "Strip" seems to be used in the context of soccer for which
game
the shirt and shorts are similar to what a man would be left wearing after
stripping off his top clothes.
|
BrE desk dictionaries: Collins 1992 "the clothes worn by the members of a
team, esp. a football team" / Chambers 1992 "light garb for running,
football, etc."
Neither of these seems exact enough, (esp. Chambers). The strip refers to
what is in effect a uniform, though that word in my experience (many years'
teaching in a sports-mad boys' school) isn't used in BrE for team-sports
clothes. A "strip" consists of a shirt or equivalent top, shorts and long
socks.
Even an amateur team usually has at least two different designs of strip,
one for regular use, the other as an alternative when playing away against a
team whose strip is similar, or there may be a regular pair of "home" and
"away" strips. The more designs there are, and the more often they change,
the more replicas - especially of the "top" - can be sold at inordinate
prices to devotees of the team, or at least to their doting parents. I see
on the Manchester United website that there are two complete playing kits
for children in current "home" and "away" designs, and six different tops
for adults or children - three in current, three in forthcoming designs.
There are even ManU garments for "little boys 3-6 months". Everything seems
to be made by Nike.
Peter Duncanson's proposed derivation seems entirely plausible. He's also
probably right about soccer: I don't recall that the term was used for
rugby, though perhaps I just wasn't paying attention when the sports
announcements were being made at Morning Assembly.
Alan Jones |
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david56
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:40 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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meirman typed thus:
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:38:51 GMT Odysseus
odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
Paul J Kriha wrote:
The terminology around tarrot card games is quite interesting in its own right.
I think it spread from West (from France through Germany, Bohemia, etc)
to the East. It seems that R. preserved the older style names.
Tarrot card diamonds are actually round shapes signifying money. In modern
Czech they are called spheres ('kule'). Canasta (or bridge) card diamonds
are called 'ka'ry'. I have no idea what that means.
In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles". Possibly
What is a pantacle?
due to a conflation of the last term with "pentangle", in some Tarot
More important, how is Tarot pronounced. Is the final T silent, or
not?
|
I've never heard the final t pronounced - the word rhymes with
Harrow.
--
David
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:49 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In article news:<v319k0dmuku9ba3gsn2cniqqa4aj2ft4fk@4ax.com>, Peter
Duncanson wrote:
| Quote: | "Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have handy.
|
It's in the NSOED (not exactly a desktop dictionary ... but I'm using the
handy freebie version from the May 2000 Personal Computer World cover CD
which is on my /virtual/ desktop).
| strip /strIp/ n.3
|
| M19. [f. STRIP v.1]
[snip]
| 3 The distinctive clothing worn by the members of a sports team
| when playing. L20.
The derivation from strip v.1 is indeed that of removing outer clothing:
| strip /strIp/ v.1 Infl. -pp-. Pa. t. & pple stripped, (arch.) stript.ME.
|
| [Corresp. to MDu. stroopen (Du. stropen), OHG stroufen (G streifen),
| f. WGmc. Prob. already in OE: cf. BESTRIP.]
|
| I 1 v.t. Remove the clothing from; unclothe, undress, make naked; divest
| or deprive of or of clothing (to a specified extent). ME.
... etc.
So it is not, as I was rather hoping it would be, related to:
| strip /strIp/ n.1
|
| LME. [f. or cogn. w. (M)LG strippe strap, thong, prob. rel. to STRIPE
| n.1, n.2]
|
| 1 A long narrow piece of or of some material (orig. cloth or paper),
| of approximately uniform breadth. LME.
|
| <obsolete sense> b An ornamental article worn about the neck and upper
| body, chiefly by women. L16–M17.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:54 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:37:24 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | "Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have handy.
BrE desk dictionaries: Collins 1992 "the clothes worn by the members of a
team, esp. a football team" / Chambers 1992 "light garb for running,
football, etc."
|
Clearly I need more recent desk dictionaries.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:17 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Peter Duncanson wrote:
| Quote: |
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:37:24 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
"Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have handy.
BrE desk dictionaries: Collins 1992 "the clothes worn by the members of a
team, esp. a football team" / Chambers 1992 "light garb for running,
football, etc."
Clearly I need more recent desk dictionaries.
|
In British novels it seems to be called "kit."
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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John McLeod
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:18 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 Paul J Kriha <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz>
wrote:
| Quote: | There are no leaves in a tarot deck; modern French suited tarot (taroky)
decks as used in the south and east parts of the Czech Republic
(Moravia) have spades (Czech piky). Italian suited tarot cards have
swords.
I think here you mixing up two different sets of cards.
'Maria's^' cards have greens. 'Kanasta' cards have piky.
|
I don't think so. I know of four different sorts of cards that are used
(or have been used in the 20th century) in what is now the Czech
Republic:
1. Maria's' cards have what playing-card specialists call 'German'
suits, which include green (leaves). There are actually two kinds of
these - single-headed, more often used in Bohemia, and double-headed,
more often used in Moravia. Both kinds are 32-card packs, not Tarot
packs.
2. Kanasta cards have 'French' suits, including 'piky' (spades).
3. Taroky cards also have the same French suits, in addition to the 21
trumps and the S'ky'z. This is the modern form of the Tarot pack used
for playing - quite popular in Moravia, especially around Brno, but
rarely seen in Prague.
4. S'pa'dy karty, which are no longer made or used. They finally went
out of production in the 1940's. They had Italian suits of swords,
batons, cups and coins, somewhat like Italian Tarot cards. This was a
36-card pack with ace, king, horse, jack, 10, 9, 8, 7, 2 in each suit.
--
John McLeod For information on card games visit
john@pagat.com http://www.pagat.com/ |
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John McLeod
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:27 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 Paul J Kriha <paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz>
wrote:
| Quote: | The suits are (in the descending order of importance):
c^erveny' or srdce (reds or hearts)
kule (spheres) (nb. literary correct word is koule)
zeleny' (greens)
z^aludy (acorns)
The actual graphical design of the cards is similar to German Tarots.
|
I think I disagree with the last sentence. I am not sure what is meant
here by German Tarots. The only Tarot cards used for playing in Germany
nowadays are the Cego cards used in the Black Forest. This is a 54-card
pack with suits of spades, clubs, diamonds and hearts (8 cards each), 21
numbered trumps and a Gstiess. There are two kinds of designs of the
trumps, with animals and with domestic scenes. Until the early 20th
century there were also 78-card packs of somewhat similar design: these
were used throughout Germany in the 19th century.
If the reference here is to fortune-telling tarot packs, I'm not sure
there is any specifically German design of these - I would say that the
designs have become international, and they have suits which were
originally the ordinary Italian suits of swords, batons, cups and coins,
though the fortune tellers have over the years transformed the batons
into wands and the coins into something they call pentacles.
In any case, all these tarot cards seem to be quite different from the
Czech cards (Maria's' cards) described by PJK.
--
John McLeod For information on card games visit
john@pagat.com http://www.pagat.com/ |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:13 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: |
In alt.english.usage on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 17:38:51 GMT Odysseus
odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
[Tarot suit]
In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles".
What is a pantacle?
A talisman inscribed with a diagram representing the cosmos, like an |
Indian _mandala_. I believe it's from the Latin _pantaculum_, "little
whole": _pan-_ with a diminutive suffix, cf. "homunculus".
--
Odysseus |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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John McLeod wrote:
| Quote: |
There seems to be some confusion in these posts between the German and
Italian suit systems.
Tarot cards (until the mid 18th century everywhere, and to this day in
Italy and Switzerland) use the Italian suit system in which the suits
are swords, batons, cups and coins. Ordinary Bohemian cards use the
German suit system of acorns, leaves, hearts and bells (this is a
32-card deck with 8 cards in each of these suits). Based on usage in
card games, the normal correspondence between German, French and Italian
suits is
acorns : clubs : batons
leaves : spades : swords
hearts : hearts : cups
bells : diamonds : coins
[snip]
Hope this helps.
|
Yes, thanks for the clarification.
--
Odysseus |
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david56
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:36 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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|
Peter T. Daniels typed thus:
| Quote: | Peter Duncanson wrote:
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:37:24 GMT, "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
"Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have handy.
BrE desk dictionaries: Collins 1992 "the clothes worn by the members of a
team, esp. a football team" / Chambers 1992 "light garb for running,
football, etc."
Clearly I need more recent desk dictionaries.
In British novels it seems to be called "kit."
|
I would say that "kit" is any clothing worn for sport, e.g. the stuff
you wear at school or to go running. "strip" to me is branded for
the team who are playing in it.
Kit can also mean just "clothes" but only in some circumstances.
"Get your kit off" is an invitation to undress. Playboy shows photos
of women "with their kit off".
There was an advert for (I think) Manchester United branded football
shirts, showing a young lady wearing a shirt several sizes too big
for her and apparently nothing else. Underneath, it said "And you
thought she looked better with her kit off". Excellent.
--
David
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jk
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:03 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in message news:<tri9k05ivq5l34ose76hpi3thlh5u5cbed@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles". Possibly
What is a pantacle?
|
In magickal usage, pantacle is a consecrated embodiment of some power.
So, a pentacle is a pantacle, that is a five-pointed star on a disk, as you
see in some Tarot card suits, is a magickal device, one principally
devoted to rooting things in material terms---something like a
matrix---that is manifestation. But a pantacle can be something much
more than that, representing a complete symbol for the Magus' life and
power. In that case, to simplify, it is rather like a nametag, or you
might say the title of a playing card.
| Quote: | due to a conflation of the last term with "pentangle", in some Tarot
More important, how is Tarot pronounced. Is the final T silent, or
not?
|
The word is French, so "TAR-oh". Silent last "t".
(jk)
********************************
Read jk's Tarot FAQ:
http://jktarot.com/faq.html
Tarot News:
http://jktarot.com/news.html
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