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Message |
meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:05 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:20:44 GMT Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
| Quote: | Igor Sklar wrote:
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
"Red Square" is a mistranslation: Krasnaya ploschad was named for its
beauty and not for the red colour of kremlin walls.
When was it given that name? I had assumed the Communists renamed it, |
and if I add in that krasa means beautiful, maybe it was meant to have
a double meaning, beautiful and red, the Communists' favorite color.
Sort of like the US TV show NYPD Blue. I'm sure some of their
promotion points to the color of police uniforms in NY, but it was
also called blue to indicate that it was smutty, as in blue movie.
Actually, that was the main reason, but when they milked that for what
it was worth, they may have dropped that somewhat. I don't know. I
don't watch the show or pay attention to the commercials for it.
| Quote: | I'd heard of the "beautiful" meaning but I didn't realize it was the
original, nor that the name of the square doesn't actually refer to
the colour.
The English "fair" means both "beautiful" and "pale" (or "blonde"); I
don't know which sense is the earlier, or whether they're even true cognates.
|
I don't know either. But I'll speculate. Not counting the racial
issue, at least in the US, for a long time having light skin was
better than dark skin, because the half of the country that worked in
farming, plus poor people, worked outside and they got very tanned.
People with money and leisure or executive jobs stayed inside much of
the time and stayed light skinned. In the summer people with money
had summer homes 10 to 50 miles out of town. (When cars were invented
and the roads paved, they would be farther out.)
Eventually Florida, and the Carribean, and cruises became popular for
vacations, or lounging by the swimming pool, and wealth and leisure
got associated with dark skin, "You have a beautiful tan." Would fair
have meant beautiful if things were redone then?
In the last 20 years, loads of people have started to worry about skin
cancer, and they apply lotion to avoid UV or something, and I doubt
there are nearly as many compliments about suntans. And for that
matter, in the last 100-50 years, the number of workers who work
outside has dropped tremendously. Farming only takes about 3% of the
population and many have awnings on their tractors, because the sun is
hot. Loads of workers work indoors now.
| Quote: | The brightest red colour is 'alyi' (from Turkic root al-). The darker
shade of red is 'bagryanyi' or 'bagrovyi' (akin to bagrets =
'purple'). There are also several later French loanwords, like
'puntsovyi' (from 'ponceau') and 'bordovyi' (from 'bordeau wine').
Other shades of red are commonly described by the "fruit" words:
vishniovyi ('cherry-coloured'), malinovyi ('raspberry-coloured'), etc.
English has a couple of those as well, like "cerise" -- which also
appears to be borrowed from French. I imagine our "burgundy" is much
the same as _bordovyi_.
The PIE *reudh- is preserved in Russian words ryzhyi ('red-haired'),
reudryi ('yellowish red') and rdet' ('to redden'), among others.
Gaelic has _ruadh_, which is often seen anglicized to Roy in personal
(nick)names, e.g. Rob Roy (MacGregor, immortalized by Sir Walter
Scott), "red-haired Robert".
|
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years
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Paul J Kriha
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:54 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Igor Sklar <yaroslavl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:870e846a.0409110904.3621d1ca@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | Paul J Kriha wrote...
goldenrod@volcanomail.com (Chulsoo Kim) wrote in message
news:<2396849a.0409100020.279a4caf@posting.google.com>...
yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
news:<870e846a.0409090124.1c89dedd@posting.google.com>...
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv').
The dictionary I'm looking at now has "chervonnyi" not as being
derived from "cherv'" but from "chervi" (heart) instead.
"chervi" is a plural of "cherv"
In Slavic languages the hearts in a card game are called reds.
The Slavic word for hearts was translated by the Czechs from Ger.
'Roth' (=red).
The Russian word for diamonds ('bubny') also came from Bohemia, as did
the word for spades ('vini', from wine).
|
The terminology around tarrot card games is quite interesting in its own right.
I think it spread from West (from France through Germany, Bohemia, etc)
to the East. It seems that R. preserved the older style names.
Tarrot card diamonds are actually round shapes signifying money. In modern
Czech they are called spheres ('kule'). Canasta (or bridge) card diamonds
are called 'ka'ry'. I have no idea what that means.
| Quote: | There are three words for clubs: colloquial 'kresti' (i.e., crosses),
more literary 'trefy' (Ger Treff, Fr trefle)
|
Cz. 'Kr^iz^e' or colloquial 'trefy' is used with the canasta cards not with
tarrots.
The tarrot spades (in fact leaves) used to look like sticks and were called
sticks. Later they seemed to grow more leaves and eventually became
just green leaves. The modern Bohemian name is greens ('zeleny'').
| Quote: | and antiquated 'zhludi' (i.e., acorns).
|
The tarrot acorns still look quite clearly like acorns and the current
Bohemian name is acorns ('z^aludy').
Paul JK
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Paul J Kriha
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:13 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message news:41435CA3.87C91642@yahoo-dot.ca...
| Quote: | Igor Sklar wrote:
"o8TY" <o8ty@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4141da03_1@news.iprimus.com.au>...
[snip]
Compare
(Russian) chernozem = fertile humus-rich black soil (perhaps worm droppings)
of south Russia. [OED f Russ chernyi = black + zemlya = earth]
[snip]
Slavic *c'rv' is a variation of Old Slav. *c'rm' ('worm'), preserved
in OCS chermnyi ('red'), Old Russ. cheremnyi ('red-haired'), Slov.
c'rmljen ('red'), Cz. c'ermak ('robin'), etc.
Is the "e" vowel pronounced the same in these as in _chernyi_, which
I believe is something like /jo/? (I've heard Ukrainian-Canadians say
something like _chernyi khleb_ for "black bread" -- dark rye -- but I
know very little about the differences between Ukrainian and Russian,
beyond those seen in their alphabets.)
|
No, I don't think it's the same vowel.
There is no <e> in <chjornyj>, the "e" is double dotted (even though the
double dots are sometimes omitted in print) so it's a different vowel.
There is <e> in some related words. I believe <chernota> (blackness,
darkness) is spelled with <e> and pronounced accordingly.
It seems to me that <jo> in <chjorn-> becomes <e> when accent moves
away from the first syllable. For example <chernota> has accent on the
last syllable.
I hope Igor will agree with all this. I am drawing from a well dug more
than fourty five years ago and it's not very deep anymore. :-)
Paul JK
> Odysseus
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Paul J Kriha
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:23 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in message news:f367k09ust7jkavusd2392fv45jsjmn73j@4ax.com...
| Quote: | In alt.english.usage on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:20:44 GMT Odysseus
odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
Igor Sklar wrote:
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
"Red Square" is a mistranslation: Krasnaya ploschad was named for its
beauty and not for the red colour of kremlin walls.
When was it given that name? I had assumed the Communists renamed it,
and if I add in that krasa means beautiful, maybe it was meant to have
a double meaning, beautiful and red, the Communists' favorite color.
|
AFAIK the square was built during the reign of Ivan III before Columbus
discovered America and was given its current name couple centuries later.
The communism wasn't quite on the scene yet. :-)
Paul JK |
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Marc Adler
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:27 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Paul J Kriha wrote:
| Quote: | I hope Igor will agree with all this. I am drawing from a well dug more
than fourty five years ago and it's not very deep anymore. 
|
No one asked me, but I'll agree with you. Sort of. /Jo/ ё is only found
under an accent (not necessarily the first syllable, though), except for
a few compounds like trjoxetazhnyj трёхэтажный (three-storied).
--
Maar God weet, dat, ten dage |
als gij daarvan eet, zo zullen | Marc Adler |------
uw ogen geopend worden, en gij | /
zult als God wezen, kennende het | ------| marc.adler@gmail.com
goed en het kwaad. - Genesis 3:5 | |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:08 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In alt.english.usage on Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:23:40 +1200 "Paul J Kriha"
<paul.nospam.kriha@paradise.net.nz> posted:
| Quote: |
meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in message news:f367k09ust7jkavusd2392fv45jsjmn73j@4ax.com...
In alt.english.usage on Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:20:44 GMT Odysseus
odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
Igor Sklar wrote:
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
"Red Square" is a mistranslation: Krasnaya ploschad was named for its
beauty and not for the red colour of kremlin walls.
When was it given that name? I had assumed the Communists renamed it,
and if I add in that krasa means beautiful, maybe it was meant to have
a double meaning, beautiful and red, the Communists' favorite color.
AFAIK the square was built during the reign of Ivan III before Columbus
discovered America and was given its current name couple centuries later.
The communism wasn't quite on the scene yet.
|
If that's the case, Never mind.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Igor Sklar
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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dgshhfhfhd@voila.fr (Mistranslator) wrote...
| Quote: | yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
What about Old Indian <krsnah> = black?
|
I believe any resemblance between "krsnah" and "krasnyi" is
accidental. Sans. krsnah is cognate with Lith kersas ('piebald'),
Prus. kirsnan ('black'), Old Slav. *c'rxn, whence Russ. chernyi
('black'), Ukr. chornyi, Bulg. cheren, Cz. cerny, Pol. czarny.
regards |
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Igor Sklar
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:25 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Paul J Kriha wrote...
| Quote: | Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:<41435CA3.87C91642@yahoo-dot.ca>...
Igor Sklar wrote:
Slavic *c'rv' is a variation of Old Slav. *c'rm' ('worm'), preserved
in OCS chermnyi ('red'), Old Russ. cheremnyi ('red-haired'), Slov.
c'rmljen ('red'), Cz. c'ermak ('robin'), etc.
Is the "e" vowel pronounced the same in these as in _chernyi_, which
I believe is something like /jo/? (I've heard Ukrainian-Canadians say
something like _chernyi khleb_ for "black bread" -- dark rye -- but I
know very little about the differences between Ukrainian and Russian,
beyond those seen in their alphabets.)
It seems to me that <jo> in <chjorn-> becomes <e> when accent moves
away from the first syllable. For example <chernota> has accent on the
last syllable.
|
That's correct. I agree with Paul and Marc that the OCS word
'chermnyi' is pronounced with /e/, as that language has no /jo/ sound
at all. I've heard the word pronounced only twice, when alluding to
"Vsevolod Chermnyi" (the 12th-century prince of Kiev) and "Chermnoye
More" (i.e., Red Sea as mentioned in the Exodus). I also recall that
Marina Tsvetaeva rhymed "morem Chermnym" with "golovu Oloferna",
another indication that the OCS word should be pronounced with /e/ and
not /jo/.
regards
| Quote: |
I hope Igor will agree with all this. I am drawing from a well dug more
than fourty five years ago and it's not very deep anymore. |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:59 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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|
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:414389F8.E3@worldnet.att.net...
[...]
| Quote: | I don't know "claret" as a color name; "burgundy" has connotations of
richness, so something made of "burgundy polyester" might not be a
successful seller.
[...] |
I first knew of "claret" as a colour name in the context of professional
soccer (BrE "football"). The colours of the Aston Villa strip {do USans use
"strip" for the distinguishing clothes worn by a sports team when playing?)
are claret and blue. The two colours are splashed all over the official
website < www.avfc.co.uk/ >, though their idea of claret isn't quite mine.
"Claret" was once a slang word for "blood", especially as spilled in a
fight; and elderly gents acquired "claret noses", the colour doubtless
thought to be created by their indulgence in the wine.
Alan Jones |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:22 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: |
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:414389F8.E3@worldnet.att.net...
[...]
I don't know "claret" as a color name; "burgundy" has connotations of
richness, so something made of "burgundy polyester" might not be a
successful seller.
[...]
I first knew of "claret" as a colour name in the context of professional
soccer (BrE "football"). The colours of the Aston Villa strip {do USans use
"strip" for the distinguishing clothes worn by a sports team when playing?)
|
uniform
I, for one, would like it if they stripped before playing.
| Quote: | are claret and blue. The two colours are splashed all over the official
website < www.avfc.co.uk/ >, though their idea of claret isn't quite mine.
"Claret" was once a slang word for "blood", especially as spilled in a
fight; and elderly gents acquired "claret noses", the colour doubtless
thought to be created by their indulgence in the wine.
-- |
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Brian M. Scott
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:23 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:22:23 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
<grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
<news:41443F7E.424@worldnet.att.net> in
alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
[...]
| Quote: | I first knew of "claret" as a colour name in the context of professional
soccer (BrE "football"). The colours of the Aston Villa strip {do USans use
"strip" for the distinguishing clothes worn by a sports team when playing?)
|
Not only do we not use it, it's completely opaque.
| Quote: | uniform
I, for one, would like it if they stripped before playing.
|
Well, there's always sumo.
[...]
Brian |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:03 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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|
Brian M. Scott wrote:
| Quote: |
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:22:23 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:41443F7E.424@worldnet.att.net> in
alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
Alan Jones wrote:
[...]
I first knew of "claret" as a colour name in the context of professional
soccer (BrE "football"). The colours of the Aston Villa strip {do USans use
"strip" for the distinguishing clothes worn by a sports team when playing?)
Not only do we not use it, it's completely opaque.
uniform
I, for one, would like it if they stripped before playing.
Well, there's always sumo.
|
Yuck.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 11:38 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Paul J Kriha wrote:
| Quote: |
The terminology around tarrot card games is quite interesting in its own right.
I think it spread from West (from France through Germany, Bohemia, etc)
to the East. It seems that R. preserved the older style names.
Tarrot card diamonds are actually round shapes signifying money. In modern
Czech they are called spheres ('kule'). Canasta (or bridge) card diamonds
are called 'ka'ry'. I have no idea what that means.
In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles". Possibly |
due to a conflation of the last term with "pentangle", in some Tarot
decks they're depicted with pentagrams on them.
[snip]
| Quote: |
The tarrot spades (in fact leaves) used to look like sticks and were called
sticks. Later they seemed to grow more leaves and eventually became
just green leaves. The modern Bohemian name is greens ('zeleny'').
Those sound like the "wands" or "batons"; they usually correspond to |
the playing-card suit of clubs. They're often depicted like staves
cut from saplings, having stubs of side-branches, but sometimes
smooth and decorated, more like a rod of office. In all the
traditional Tarot decks I've seen, the suit equivalent to spades is
"swords" -- as the etymology would imply.
| Quote: | The tarrot acorns still look quite clearly like acorns and the current
Bohemian name is acorns ('z^aludy').
|
If I've followed you correctly so far, the 'small' suits in a
Bohemian tarot deck include spheres, leaves, and acorns. What's the
fourth, corresponding to hearts: is it "cups" as in the west?
--
Odysseus |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:09 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 10:23:54 -0400, "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@csuohio.edu>
wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 12:22:23 GMT, "Peter T. Daniels"
grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:41443F7E.424@worldnet.att.net> in
alt.english.usage,sci.lang:
Alan Jones wrote:
[...]
I first knew of "claret" as a colour name in the context of professional
soccer (BrE "football"). The colours of the Aston Villa strip {do USans use
"strip" for the distinguishing clothes worn by a sports team when playing?)
Not only do we not use it, it's completely opaque.
|
"Strip" in this sense is not in any BrE desk dictionary that I have handy.
I have always assumed that it derives from the notion of stripping-off,
undressing. "Strip" seems to be used in the context of soccer for which game
the shirt and shorts are similar to what a man would be left wearing after
stripping off his top clothes.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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John McLeod
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:57 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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There seems to be some confusion in these posts between the German and
Italian suit systems.
Tarot cards (until the mid 18th century everywhere, and to this day in
Italy and Switzerland) use the Italian suit system in which the suits
are swords, batons, cups and coins. Ordinary Bohemian cards use the
German suit system of acorns, leaves, hearts and bells (this is a
32-card deck with 8 cards in each of these suits). Based on usage in
card games, the normal correspondence between German, French and Italian
suits is
acorns : clubs : batons
leaves : spades : swords
hearts : hearts : cups
bells : diamonds : coins
The bells in the German suit system are spherical, and in some Central
European countries the symbol is interpreted as representing balls or
gourds: it is also of course much the same shape as a coin.
On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | Paul J Kriha wrote:
The terminology around tarrot card games is quite interesting in its
own right.
I think it spread from West (from France through Germany, Bohemia, etc)
to the East. It seems that R. preserved the older style names.
Tarrot card diamonds are actually round shapes signifying money. In modern
Czech they are called spheres ('kule'). Canasta (or bridge) card diamonds
are called 'ka'ry'. I have no idea what that means.
|
ka'ry' is certainly derived from the French carreau, the ordinary French
word for the suit of diamonds.
| Quote: | In English they're usually "coins", "disks", or "pantacles". Possibly
due to a conflation of the last term with "pentangle", in some Tarot
decks they're depicted with pentagrams on them.
|
Only on fortune telling decks. Tarot decks for play have coins.
| Quote: | The tarrot spades (in fact leaves) used to look like sticks and were called
sticks. Later they seemed to grow more leaves and eventually became
just green leaves. The modern Bohemian name is greens ('zeleny'').
|
There are no leaves in a tarot deck; modern French suited tarot (taroky)
decks as used in the south and east parts of the Czech Republic
(Moravia) have spades (Czech piky). Italian suited tarot cards have
swords.
| Quote: | In all the
traditional Tarot decks I've seen, the suit equivalent to spades is
"swords" -- as the etymology would imply.
|
Agreed.
| Quote: | The tarrot acorns still look quite clearly like acorns and the current
Bohemian name is acorns ('z^aludy').
|
There are no acorns in a tarot deck: the corresponding suit is clubs
(French suits) or batons (Italian suits).
| Quote: | If I've followed you correctly so far, the 'small' suits in a
Bohemian tarot deck include spheres, leaves, and acorns. What's the
fourth, corresponding to hearts: is it "cups" as in the west?
|
The fourth suit in ordinary Bohemian decks is hearts.
Since Italian suited cards were used in Bohemia until relatively
recently (the 36-card S'pa'dy karty) and both French and Ger5man suited
cards are in current use it is easy to find the Czech names for the four
suits in all three systems.
German:
acorns = z'aludy : leaves = zelene' : hearts = c'ervene' : bells = kule
French:
clubs = kr'i'z'e : spades = piky : hearts = srdce : diamonds = ka'ry
Italian:
batons = bas'tony : swords = s'pa'dy : cups = kopy : coins = dena'ry
Source:
Toma's' SVOBODA: Oficia'lni' Pravidla Karetni'ch Her - page 20.
(Eminent, Prague, 2002. ISBN 80-7281-116-8)
Hope this helps.
--
John McLeod For information on card games visit
john@pagat.com http://www.pagat.com/ |
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