| Author |
Message |
R*
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:15 am
Post subject: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
Vermillion or vermilion both are in my dictionary... how frustrating.
My simple research shows that vermillion was first spelled with one L
by John Wesley Powel. Any truth to that?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:19 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
R* wrote:
| Quote: | I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
Vermillion or vermilion both are in my dictionary... how frustrating.
My simple research shows that vermillion was first spelled with one L
by John Wesley Powel. Any truth to that?
|
I'm afraid I don't know John Wesley Powel well enough to say *how* he
first spelled vermilion. Nor, indeed, do I know how he spells it now. Or
if he ever spelled his own name Powell. OED doesn't seem to know him.
OED has at its earliest spelling and cite for vermilion:
"400-50 Alexander 4336 Nouthire to toly ne to taunde transmitte we na
vebbis, To vermylion ne violett ne variant littis."
Both forms seem to be in use from the 15th Century with double l more
common in earlier cites and single l more common in later.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daniel James
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:12 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
In article news:<d6258fb2.0409071115.51eb2a4f@posting.google.com>,
R* wrote:
| Quote: | I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
|
Hmm. So was I - yet the spelling "vermilion" is the only one
mentioned in the /*Shorter* OED/.
More interesting, to me, is how Mercuric Sulphide comes to have a
name that means "liitle worm"?
Cheers,
Daniel.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:18 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Daniel James wrote:
| Quote: | In article news:<d6258fb2.0409071115.51eb2a4f@posting.google.com>,
R* wrote:
I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
Hmm. So was I - yet the spelling "vermilion" is the only one
mentioned in the /*Shorter* OED/.
More interesting, to me, is how Mercuric Sulphide comes to have a
name that means "liitle worm"?
Perhaps the Romans were familiar with a type of bright red worm? |
--
John Dean
Oxford |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Martin Ambuhl
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Daniel James wrote:
| Quote: | In article news:<d6258fb2.0409071115.51eb2a4f@posting.google.com>,
R* wrote:
I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
Hmm. So was I - yet the spelling "vermilion" is the only one
mentioned in the /*Shorter* OED/.
|
For peculiar values of the word "only." Read this beginning of these
SOED entries for "vermilion" carefully:
vermilion, noun & adjective.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. ME.
[Old French vermeillon, from vermeil from Latin vermiculus dim. of
vermis worm.]
[...]
and
vermilion, verb trans.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. E17.
[from the noun.]
[...] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Jones
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:38 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
"Martin Ambuhl" <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2q8oqnFst54iU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Daniel James wrote:
In article news:<d6258fb2.0409071115.51eb2a4f@posting.google.com>,
R* wrote:
I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
Hmm. So was I - yet the spelling "vermilion" is the only one
mentioned in the /*Shorter* OED/.
For peculiar values of the word "only." Read this beginning of these
SOED entries for "vermilion" carefully:
vermilion, noun & adjective.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. ME.
[Old French vermeillon, from vermeil from Latin vermiculus dim. of
vermis worm.]
[...]
and
vermilion, verb trans.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. E17.
[from the noun.]
[...]
|
True: but there's no doubt that the usual modern BrE spelling is
"vermilion". That's what I see (and from my remote childhood always have
seen) on the labels of artists' colours. My preferred desk dictionary,
Chambers, has only -l- ; Collins gives -ll- as a variant ("or", without
comment). The MS Word spell-checker, UK version, passes both spellings.
I have occasionally seen "vermillion" (in poems, I think) and supposed it a
mistake; but perhaps, given its ancient provenance, it's a literary
archaism. Is -ll- used in AmE, and, if so, is it standard or seen as an
oddity?
Alan Jones |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Igor Sklar
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
John Dean wrote...
| Quote: | Daniel James wrote:
In article news:,
R* wrote:
I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
Hmm. So was I - yet the spelling "vermilion" is the only one
mentioned in the /*Shorter* OED/.
More interesting, to me, is how Mercuric Sulphide comes to have a
name that means "liitle worm"?
Perhaps the Romans were familiar with a type of bright red worm?
--
John Dean
Oxford
|
Actually, the red colour was obtained by our ancestors from the Coccus
insects. That's why the Slavic word for 'red' stems from "chervets",
literally 'a small worm'. The Old Prus. varmun ('red') was derived
from varmas ('worm'). And the Ukrainian word for red (vermyaniy)
ascends to the Old Russ. vermie ('worms').
regards |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Raymond S. Wise
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:52 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: | "Martin Ambuhl" <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2q8oqnFst54iU1@uni-berlin.de...
Daniel James wrote:
In article news:<d6258fb2.0409071115.51eb2a4f@posting.google.com>,
R* wrote:
I was amazed to find this word with only one L.
Hmm. So was I - yet the spelling "vermilion" is the only one
mentioned in the /*Shorter* OED/.
For peculiar values of the word "only." Read this beginning of these
SOED entries for "vermilion" carefully:
vermilion, noun & adjective.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. ME.
[Old French vermeillon, from vermeil from Latin vermiculus dim. of
vermis worm.]
[...]
and
vermilion, verb trans.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. E17.
[from the noun.]
[...]
True: but there's no doubt that the usual modern BrE spelling is
"vermilion". That's what I see (and from my remote childhood always
have seen) on the labels of artists' colours. My preferred desk
dictionary, Chambers, has only -l- ; Collins gives -ll- as a variant
("or", without comment). The MS Word spell-checker, UK version,
passes both spellings.
I have occasionally seen "vermillion" (in poems, I think) and
supposed it a mistake; but perhaps, given its ancient provenance,
it's a literary archaism. Is -ll- used in AmE, and, if so, is it
standard or seen as an oddity?
|
"Vermillion" is a standard spelling in American English, but it's a standard
spelling in British English as well. It's listed as a variant in several
American dictionaries, but the *Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary* at
www.m-w.com indicates the variant by saying "_also_ *ver·mil·lion.*_ This
means that it is a secondary variant, occurring noticeably less often than
"vermilion." It must be pretty rare, because the dictionary at
www.infoplease.com (which appears to be the *Random House Webster's
Unabridged Dictionary,* 2nd ed., without etymologies and usage notes) does
not have the "vermillion" variant at all.
I say it is standard in British English because it is listed as a standard
variant in the following dictionaries:
The *Compact Oxford English Dictionary* at
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/vermilion?view=uk
and the *Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary* at
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=88044&dict=CALD
*The Century Dictionary* ( www.century-dictionary.com ), an American
dictionary of 1895, gave "vermillion" as a former spelling only, "Formerly
also _vermillion, virmilion_ [....]" The connection between the red color
and a form of life (although not what I'd call a worm) can be seen under the
Century's entry for "vermeil" (I've represented the pronunciation in the
following by ASCII IPA.):
[quote]
*vermeil* /'v@rmIl/ _n._ [Early mod. E. also _ver-
mil, vermell_ (the mod. spelling being a rever-
sion to the F. spelling) ; < ME. _vermeile, ver-
mayle,_ < OF _vermeil_ (= It. _vermiglio_), bright
red, vermilion, < L. _vermiculus,_ a little worm,
LL. (in Vulgate) used for the kermes-insect,
from which the color crimson or carmine was
obtained, dim. of L. _vermis,_ a worm, = E. _worm :_
see _vermiele, vermicule,_ and _worm,_ and cf. _crim-
son_ and _carmine,_ which are ult. connected with
_worm._ Hence _vermilion._]
[end quote]
I've looked at pictures of the kermes insect on the Web. It doesn't look
very much like a worm to me. It appears that cochineal, which is an insect
now more often used as the source of a red dye, is a different species: I
did find a Web site in which purple dye was discussed that said "kermes
vermilio (_porphyrophora_) [is] also called Polish or Armenian
Cochineal[....]"
I'm inclined to think that the spelling of "vermilion" with one "l" was the
handiwork of etymological respellers who based it not upon French, but upon
the Latin "vermiculus," since that had only one "l," and etymological
respellers were more likely to go all the way back to Latin or Greek for
guidance than to a younger language. (The argument that the "vermilion"
spelling might be a reversion to French is not made by the Century--they
were talking about the word "vermeil." But MW says that "vermilion" came
from "Middle English _vermilioun,_ from Old French _vermeillon,_ from
"vermeil." Some might argue that this means the etymological respellers were
inspired by "vermeil" when using one "l." Having seen the results of the
etymological respellers having fiddled with other words, I think this
unlikely.)
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Odysseus
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:59 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Igor Sklar wrote:
| Quote: |
Actually, the red colour was obtained by our ancestors from the Coccus
insects. That's why the Slavic word for 'red' stems from "chervets",
literally 'a small worm'. The Old Prus. varmun ('red') was derived
from varmas ('worm'). And the Ukrainian word for red (vermyaniy)
ascends to the Old Russ. vermie ('worms').
|
The Greek for scarlet-red is _kokkinë_, likewise cognate with the
name of the "cochineal" insect.
Does the Russian _krasnoye_ (sorry if that's a poor transliteration),
as in the name of Moscow's Red Square, refer to a slightly different
colour than do the 'worm' words? I ask because English "vermilion"
describes a bright, orangey red (like "scarlet" but more so), while
"crimson" and "carmine", whose etymology also refers to the insect --
by a name ultimately derived from Arabic, anglicized to "kermes" --
describe purplish or blood-reds (the former deeper or bluer shades
than the latter).
--
Odysseus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Odysseus
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:13 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: |
"Martin Ambuhl" <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2q8oqnFst54iU1@uni-berlin.de...
|
[quoting SOED]
| Quote: |
vermilion, noun & adjective.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. ME.
|
[snip]
| Quote: |
True: but there's no doubt that the usual modern BrE spelling is
"vermilion". That's what I see (and from my remote childhood always have
seen) on the labels of artists' colours. My preferred desk dictionary,
Chambers, has only -l- ; Collins gives -ll- as a variant ("or", without
comment). The MS Word spell-checker, UK version, passes both spellings.
For whatever it may be worth, the two Albertan toponyms I can think |
of belong to the town of Vermilion and the Vermilion Lakes (ponds,
more like -- I think they'd be called "lochans" in Scotland), both
having one L.
| Quote: | I have occasionally seen "vermillion" (in poems, I think) and supposed it a
mistake; but perhaps, given its ancient provenance, it's a literary
archaism. Is -ll- used in AmE, and, if so, is it standard or seen as an
oddity?
|
I often see the town's name misspelled that way. I encounter the
colour-word much less often but, like you, I'd have considered a
two-L spelling equally erroneous, before reading the citations in
this thread.
--
Odysseus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Igor Sklar
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:24 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message news:<413FB971.72B95CEF@yahoo-dot.ca>...
| Quote: | Igor Sklar wrote:
Actually, the red colour was obtained by our ancestors from the Coccus
insects. That's why the Slavic word for 'red' stems from "chervets",
literally 'a small worm'. The Old Prus. varmun ('red') was derived
from varmas ('worm'). And the Ukrainian word for red (vermyaniy)
ascends to the Old Russ. vermie ('worms').
The Greek for scarlet-red is _kokkinë_, likewise cognate with the
name of the "cochineal" insect.
Does the Russian _krasnoye_ (sorry if that's a poor transliteration),
|
That's all right: masc. _krasnyi_, fem. _krasnaya_, neuter _krasnoye_
| Quote: | as in the name of Moscow's Red Square, refer to a slightly different
colour than do the 'worm' words?
|
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
"Red Square" is a mistranslation: Krasnaya ploschad was named for its
beauty and not for the red colour of kremlin walls.
The brightest red colour is 'alyi' (from Turkic root al-). The darker
shade of red is 'bagryanyi' or 'bagrovyi' (akin to bagrets =
'purple'). There are also several later French loanwords, like
'puntsovyi' (from 'ponceau') and 'bordovyi' (from 'bordeau wine').
Other shades of red are commonly described by the "fruit" words:
vishniovyi ('cherry-coloured'), malinovyi ('raspberry-coloured'), etc.
The PIE *reudh- is preserved in Russian words ryzhyi ('red-haired'),
reudryi ('yellowish red') and rdet' ('to redden'), among others.
| Quote: | I ask because English "vermilion"
describes a bright, orangey red (like "scarlet" but more so), while
"crimson" and "carmine", whose etymology also refers to the insect --
by a name ultimately derived from Arabic, anglicized to "kermes" --
describe purplish or blood-reds (the former deeper or bluer shades
than the latter). |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daniel James
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
In article news:<2q8oqnFst54iU1@uni-berlin.de>, Martin Ambuhl
wrote:
| Quote: | Read this beginning of these
SOED entries for "vermilion" carefully:
vermilion, noun & adjective.
/v@"mIlj@n/
Also vermillion. ME.
|
... you must have a different edition ...
OK, looking againg I see that mine does say:
| vermilion /v@"mIlj@n/ n. & a. Also -ll-.
I was scanning for "vermillion" and missed the "Also -ll-" -- it
was so small and insignificant-looking alone at the end of the line
there. My apologies for the misinformation.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Prai Jei
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:36 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Odysseus (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
<413FB971.72B95CEF@yahoo-dot.ca>:
| Quote: | The Greek for scarlet-red is _kokkinë_, likewise cognate with the
name of the "cochineal" insect.
|
Welsh "coch", seen in mutated form at the end of Llanfair.....
--
Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!
Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
meirman
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:38 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
In alt.english.usage on Thu, 09 Sep 2004 01:59:02 GMT Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> posted:
| Quote: | Igor Sklar wrote:
Actually, the red colour was obtained by our ancestors from the Coccus
insects. That's why the Slavic word for 'red' stems from "chervets",
literally 'a small worm'. The Old Prus. varmun ('red') was derived
from varmas ('worm'). And the Ukrainian word for red (vermyaniy)
ascends to the Old Russ. vermie ('worms').
The Greek for scarlet-red is _kokkinë_, likewise cognate with the
name of the "cochineal" insect.
|
And one food-coloring, I think a very common one, is still made from
cochineal insects.
That is why some foods that would seemingly be kosher are not.
Checking a little on the web, I see that "Cochineal or Carmine is a
natural red colorant extracted from the dried bodies of the coccus
cacti insect" At different pH levels, it can make orange,
pink/fuschia, and purple color. It is water soluble. It is FDA-exempt
(and exempt in almost every country) because it was in use before the
FDA existed, long before as you tend to indicate.
In fact it's use is increasing because it is "Natural" and people like
that now.
They also make hair and skin care products, lipstick, face powder,
rouge and blush from the same insects. These are not subject to
kosher rules because one doesn't eat them. Even the lipstick, because
even though some might be ingested, it's not food and not intended to
be eaten.
http://www.wildflavors.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewPage&page_id=E0F6EEFF-5004-D739-A58DB7515D128909
| Quote: | Does the Russian _krasnoye_ (sorry if that's a poor transliteration),
as in the name of Moscow's Red Square, refer to a slightly different
colour than do the 'worm' words? I ask because English "vermilion"
describes a bright, orangey red (like "scarlet" but more so), while
"crimson" and "carmine", whose etymology also refers to the insect --
by a name ultimately derived from Arabic, anglicized to "kermes" --
describe purplish or blood-reds (the former deeper or bluer shades
than the latter).
|
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Odysseus
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:20 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
|
|
Igor Sklar wrote:
| Quote: |
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
"Red Square" is a mistranslation: Krasnaya ploschad was named for its
beauty and not for the red colour of kremlin walls.
|
I'd heard of the "beautiful" meaning but I didn't realize it was the
original, nor that the name of the square doesn't actually refer to
the colour.
The English "fair" means both "beautiful" and "pale" (or "blonde"); I
don't know which sense is the earlier, or whether they're even true cognates.
| Quote: | The brightest red colour is 'alyi' (from Turkic root al-). The darker
shade of red is 'bagryanyi' or 'bagrovyi' (akin to bagrets =
'purple'). There are also several later French loanwords, like
'puntsovyi' (from 'ponceau') and 'bordovyi' (from 'bordeau wine').
Other shades of red are commonly described by the "fruit" words:
vishniovyi ('cherry-coloured'), malinovyi ('raspberry-coloured'), etc.
|
English has a couple of those as well, like "cerise" -- which also
appears to be borrowed from French. I imagine our "burgundy" is much
the same as _bordovyi_.
| Quote: | The PIE *reudh- is preserved in Russian words ryzhyi ('red-haired'),
reudryi ('yellowish red') and rdet' ('to redden'), among others.
|
Gaelic has _ruadh_, which is often seen anglicized to Roy in personal
(nick)names, e.g. Rob Roy (MacGregor, immortalized by Sir Walter
Scott), "red-haired Robert".
--
Odysseus |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in