| Author |
Message |
Chulsoo Kim
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:20 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message news:<870e846a.0409090124.1c89dedd@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv').
|
The dictionary I'm looking at now has "chervonnyi" not as being
derived from "cherv'" but from "chervi" (heart) instead.
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:13 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Odysseus wrote:
| Quote: | The brightest red colour is 'alyi' (from Turkic root al-). The darker
shade of red is 'bagryanyi' or 'bagrovyi' (akin to bagrets =
'purple'). There are also several later French loanwords, like
'puntsovyi' (from 'ponceau') and 'bordovyi' (from 'bordeau wine').
Other shades of red are commonly described by the "fruit" words:
vishniovyi ('cherry-coloured'), malinovyi ('raspberry-coloured'), etc.
English has a couple of those as well, like "cerise" -- which also
appears to be borrowed from French. I imagine our "burgundy" is much
the same as _bordovyi_.
|
You're saying that "Bordeaux" (> bordovyi) and "Bourgogne" (> burgundy)
are the same name?
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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Igor Sklar
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:48 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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goldenrod@volcanomail.com (Chulsoo Kim) wrote...
| Quote: | yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
news:<870e846a.0409090124.1c89dedd@posting.google.com>...
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv').
The dictionary I'm looking at now has "chervonnyi" not as being
derived from "cherv'" but from "chervi" (heart) instead.
|
You will hardly find the old word "chervlyonyi" in any modern
dictionary. Your "chervonnyi" is a different word, used in card games
only.
Cochineal (Old Russ. chervets) also gave name to the month when it is
being gathered: Ukr. chervets ('June'), Cz. cherven', chervenec
('July'), Pol. czerwiec, &c.
regards
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o8TY
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:51 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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"Igor Sklar" <yaroslavl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:870e846a.0409100548.1814947c@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | goldenrod@volcanomail.com (Chulsoo Kim) wrote...
yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
news:<870e846a.0409090124.1c89dedd@posting.google.com>...
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv').
The dictionary I'm looking at now has "chervonnyi" not as being
derived from "cherv'" but from "chervi" (heart) instead.
You will hardly find the old word "chervlyonyi" in any modern
dictionary. Your "chervonnyi" is a different word, used in card games
only.
Cochineal (Old Russ. chervets) also gave name to the month when it is
being gathered: Ukr. chervets ('June'), Cz. cherven', chervenec
('July'), Pol. czerwiec, &c.
regards
|
Compare
(Russian) chernozem = fertile humus-rich black soil (perhaps worm droppings)
of south Russia. [OED f Russ chernyi = black + zemlya = earth]
with
(Greek) Chersonese = peninsula to north and west of Hellespont [OED f Gk
khersos = dry + nesos = island]
with
Cherry = the fruit tree [OED f Gk kerasos]
But
Latin Chervil = herb [OED f Gk khairephullon = hand-leaf (or leaf of Caere)
= Gk paideros = amanita muscaria = scarlet] |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:20 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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"Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
| Quote: |
Odysseus wrote:
[Igor Sklar listed some Russian colour-names, including "... |
'bordovyi' (from 'bordeau wine')."]
| Quote: |
[...] I imagine our "burgundy" is much
the same as _bordovyi_.
You're saying that "Bordeaux" (> bordovyi) and "Bourgogne" (> burgundy)
are the same name?
|
No, that the names of two different wine-producing regions are used
to describe (what I presume to be) the same red-wine colour in the
two languages. Sorry to be unclear: perhaps I should have made the
colour reference more explicit, rather than assuming it could be
inferred from the context.
--
Odysseus |
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Igor Sklar
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:40 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Odysseus wrote....
| Quote: | "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<41419A57.4A72@worldnet.att.net>...
You're saying that "Bordeaux" (> bordovyi) and "Bourgogne" (> burgundy)
are the same name?
No, that the names of two different wine-producing regions are used
to describe (what I presume to be) the same red-wine colour in the
two languages.
|
"Burgundy" is a reddish purple color (Webster). "Bordovyi" describes
all shades of dark red (Ozhogov). I understand that "bordovyi" is
wider in meaning.
Unlike "burgundy", the Russian word gained great popularity during the
last century. IIRC it is not found in Russian classical literature.
regards |
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Igor Sklar
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 9:26 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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"o8TY" <o8ty@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4141da03_1@news.iprimus.com.au>...
| Quote: | "Igor Sklar" <yaroslavl@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:870e846a.0409100548.1814947c@posting.google.com...
goldenrod@volcanomail.com (Chulsoo Kim) wrote...
yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
news:<870e846a.0409090124.1c89dedd@posting.google.com>...
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv').
The dictionary I'm looking at now has "chervonnyi" not as being
derived from "cherv'" but from "chervi" (heart) instead.
You will hardly find the old word "chervlyonyi" in any modern
dictionary. Your "chervonnyi" is a different word, used in card games
only.
Cochineal (Old Russ. chervets) also gave name to the month when it is
being gathered: Ukr. chervets ('June'), Cz. cherven', chervenec
('July'), Pol. czerwiec, &c.
regards
Compare
(Russian) chernozem = fertile humus-rich black soil (perhaps worm droppings)
of south Russia. [OED f Russ chernyi = black + zemlya = earth]
with
(Greek) Chersonese = peninsula to north and west of Hellespont [OED f Gk
khersos = dry + nesos = island]
with
Cherry = the fruit tree [OED f Gk kerasos]
But
Latin Chervil = herb [OED f Gk khairephullon = hand-leaf (or leaf of Caere)
= Gk paideros = amanita muscaria = scarlet]
|
Slavic *c'rv' is a variation of Old Slav. *c'rm' ('worm'), preserved
in OCS chermnyi ('red'), Old Russ. cheremnyi ('red-haired'), Slov.
c'rmljen ('red'), Cz. c'ermak ('robin'), etc.
Slavic *c'rv'/*c'rm' is akin to Lith kirmis ('worm'), Sans. krmih
('worm'), Pers. kirm, Alb. krimb, Ir. cruim, etc.
Can't see any connection with your cher- words. You may want to add
Russian words cherv ('sickle'), chertog ('hall'), cheryomukha ('bird
cherry'), cherta ('line'), chert ('devil') to your collection. :)
regards |
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Paul J Kriha
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:04 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Chulsoo Kim <goldenrod@volcanomail.com> wrote in message
news:2396849a.0409100020.279a4caf@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
news:<870e846a.0409090124.1c89dedd@posting.google.com>...
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv').
The dictionary I'm looking at now has "chervonnyi" not as being
derived from "cherv'" but from "chervi" (heart) instead.
|
"chervi" is a plural of "cherv"
In Slavic languages the hearts in a card game are called reds.
PJK |
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Igor Sklar
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:04 pm
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Paul J Kriha wrote...
| Quote: | goldenrod@volcanomail.com (Chulsoo Kim) wrote in message
news:<2396849a.0409100020.279a4caf@posting.google.com>...
yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message news:<870e846a.0409090124.1c89dedd@posting.google.com>...
No. The old name for red ('chervonnyi' or 'chervlyonyi'), still
preserved for poetic uses, was derived from the Old Slavic word for
worm (Russ. cherv').
The dictionary I'm looking at now has "chervonnyi" not as being
derived from "cherv'" but from "chervi" (heart) instead.
"chervi" is a plural of "cherv"
In Slavic languages the hearts in a card game are called reds.
|
The Slavic word for hearts was translated by the Czechs from Ger.
'Roth' (=red).
The Russian word for diamonds ('bubny') also came from Bohemia, as did
the word for spades ('vini', from wine).
There are three words for clubs: colloquial 'kresti' (i.e., crosses),
more literary 'trefy' (Ger Treff, Fr trefle) and antiquated 'zhludi'
(i.e., acorns).
regards |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:57 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Igor Sklar wrote:
| Quote: |
"Burgundy" is a reddish purple color (Webster). "Bordovyi" describes
all shades of dark red (Ozhogov). I understand that "bordovyi" is
wider in meaning.
Thanks for the clarification; the scope of "burgundy" is indeed |
fairly narrow, even by comparison with, say, "crimson". I must have
inferred too much from the etymology of _bordovyi_.
--
Odysseus |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:08 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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"Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:4142EE33.3E31DA31@yahoo-dot.ca...
| Quote: | "Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
Odysseus wrote:
[Igor Sklar listed some Russian colour-names, including "...
'bordovyi' (from 'bordeau wine')."]
[...] I imagine our "burgundy" is much
the same as _bordovyi_.
You're saying that "Bordeaux" (> bordovyi) and "Bourgogne" (> burgundy)
are the same name?
No, that the names of two different wine-producing regions are used
to describe (what I presume to be) the same red-wine colour in the
two languages. Sorry to be unclear: perhaps I should have made the
colour reference more explicit, rather than assuming it could be
inferred from the context.
|
The colour name related to Bordeaux red wine is "claret", not quite the same
shade as "burgundy", though I'm not sure I could identify either except by
comparison.Probably claret is more towards red than is burgundy, and also a
less intense or saturated colour. We (or the Other Group) recently went over
this quite lengthily when considering "carmine", "crimson" and other words
for colours in the same general area of purplish-red.
In the real world, both types of wine vary in colour and wouldn't
characteristically be distinguishable from each other by colour. Wine colour
depends quite a lot on age, with the older red wines having a.very slight
mahogany-brown tinge, the younger ones being more purplish.
..
Alan Jones |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:12 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Igor Sklar wrote:
| Quote: |
"o8TY" <o8ty@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<4141da03_1@news.iprimus.com.au>...
|
[snip]
| Quote: |
Compare
(Russian) chernozem = fertile humus-rich black soil (perhaps worm droppings)
of south Russia. [OED f Russ chernyi = black + zemlya = earth]
[snip]
Slavic *c'rv' is a variation of Old Slav. *c'rm' ('worm'), preserved
in OCS chermnyi ('red'), Old Russ. cheremnyi ('red-haired'), Slov.
c'rmljen ('red'), Cz. c'ermak ('robin'), etc.
Is the "e" vowel pronounced the same in these as in _chernyi_, which |
I believe is something like /jo/? (I've heard Ukrainian-Canadians say
something like _chernyi khleb_ for "black bread" -- dark rye -- but I
know very little about the differences between Ukrainian and Russian,
beyond those seen in their alphabets.)
--
Odysseus |
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Mistranslator
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:07 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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yaroslavl@gmail.com (Igor Sklar) wrote in message
| Quote: | worm (Russ. cherv'). It was replaced by the modern form 'krasnyi' in
the 17th century I think. The original meaning of 'krasnyi' was
'beautiful', from Russ. krasa ('beauty'), akin to Old Norse hrosa
('glory'), Lith grozis ('beauty'). As you may see, the
|
What about Old Indian <krsnah> = black? |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:27 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: |
"Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:4142EE33.3E31DA31@yahoo-dot.ca...
"Peter T. Daniels" wrote:
Odysseus wrote:
[Igor Sklar listed some Russian colour-names, including "...
'bordovyi' (from 'bordeau wine')."]
[...] I imagine our "burgundy" is much
the same as _bordovyi_.
You're saying that "Bordeaux" (> bordovyi) and "Bourgogne" (> burgundy)
are the same name?
No, that the names of two different wine-producing regions are used
to describe (what I presume to be) the same red-wine colour in the
two languages. Sorry to be unclear: perhaps I should have made the
colour reference more explicit, rather than assuming it could be
inferred from the context.
The colour name related to Bordeaux red wine is "claret", not quite the same
shade as "burgundy", though I'm not sure I could identify either except by
comparison.Probably claret is more towards red than is burgundy, and also a
less intense or saturated colour. We (or the Other Group) recently went over
this quite lengthily when considering "carmine", "crimson" and other words
for colours in the same general area of purplish-red.
In the real world, both types of wine vary in colour and wouldn't
characteristically be distinguishable from each other by colour. Wine colour
depends quite a lot on age, with the older red wines having a.very slight
mahogany-brown tinge, the younger ones being more purplish.
|
I don't know "claret" as a color name; "burgundy" has connotations of
richness, so something made of "burgundy polyester" might not be a
successful seller.
Crimson is whatever shade Harvard is using this year, and carnelian
ditto for Cornell. (Harvard's is usually darker, Cornell's usually
brighter.)
Carmine is the color of a red pencil.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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MC
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:32 am
Post subject: Re: The origin of "vermilion" |
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In article <414389F8.E3@worldnet.att.net>,
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Carmine is the color of a red pencil.
|
And a mafia don.
--
A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad.
--Samuel Goldwyn
Proudly killfiling Jai Maharaj since 2003
http://www.schmuckwithanunderwood.com/trolls.htm |
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