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jerry
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:28 am
Post subject: "Go Dutch" |
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Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about that.
Plucky Jerry, P
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:52 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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jerry wrote:
| Quote: |
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about that.
See <http://www.word-detective.com/back-l2.html#dutch>, |
for example, among others to which I was referred by the search
facility on the AUE FAQ page.
--
Odysseus |
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Carmen L. Abruzzi
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 1:12 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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jerry wrote:
| Quote: | Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about that.
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Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency. Of course, it
was all wishful thinking.
Yeah, well, bring it on, Jerry!
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 3:10 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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Carmen L. Abruzzi <carmenlabruzzi@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | jerry wrote:
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about that.
Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency. Of course, it
was all wishful thinking.
|
The English had been beaten by the Dutch
(under their Memorable admiral Van Broom)
in three successive Anglo-Dutch wars,
and the English were just bad losers.
But 'Dutch treat' isn't all there is to 'Dutch'
in English and American usage.
The little monograph by Spruijt on the subject, 'Total Dutch'
lists over a thousand different ones.
(including related info, like attemps at explanations for the
'Dutch' nicknames of some American presidents and gangsters.)
Not all of it derives from the 'Dutch' though:
much American usage of 'Dutch'
comes from later German immigrants,
and derives from 'Deutsch' rather than Dutch.
Best,
Jan |
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Poet Fury
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 6:12 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 00:12:36 -0700, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
| Quote: | jerry wrote:
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about that.
Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency.
|
And deceitful, apparently. A Dutch uncle is not a real uncle, a Dutch oven
is not a real oven, Dutch courage is not real courage, and a Dutch treat is
no treat at all.
--
http://www.genjerdan.com/nvm/tdis/index.html
Of course it's music. It has notes in it, doesn't it? |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:31 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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Poet Fury wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 00:12:36 -0700, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
jerry wrote:
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history
about that.
Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency.
And deceitful, apparently. A Dutch uncle is not a real uncle, a
Dutch oven is not a real oven, Dutch courage is not real courage,
and
a Dutch treat is no treat at all.
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Partridge says the "uncle" usage was in fact based on an idea that
the Dutch were strict disciplinarians.
Mike. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:33 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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Poet Fury <devnull@genjerdan.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 00:12:36 -0700, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
jerry wrote:
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about
that.
Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency.
And deceitful, apparently. A Dutch uncle is not a real uncle, a Dutch oven
is not a real oven, Dutch courage is not real courage, and a Dutch treat is
no treat at all.
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Or so it is claimed by armchair etymologists. I would hate for it to be
stated so often without challenge that it is believed to be true.
A Dutch treat *is* a kind of treat, just with a different financial
arrangement than you, Poet Fury, appear to like. A Dutch oven *is* a
kind of oven, in which food is baked, and it appears to be as old or
older than the ovens in stoves. A Dutch uncle *might* be an uncle, it is
some who speaks to you sternly, and it's usually used as a simile anyway
("like a Dutch uncle"). The courage *is* a kind of courage, but it's one
whose source is alcohol.
So, these completely fail to demonstrate that "Dutch" ever meant "not"
or "false." It may have in some other compounds, but it didn't here. No
more than "French toast" means "not toast" or "Spanish rice" means "not
rice."
--
Donna Richoux |
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Peter Duncanson
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:12:23 +0200, Poet Fury <devnull@genjerdan.com> wrote:
| Quote: | and a Dutch treat is
no treat at all.
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A Dutch treat *is* a treat to the person who is paying for only him/herself,
and not for others as well.
--
Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u) |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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On 05 Oct 2004, Donna Richoux wrote
| Quote: | Poet Fury <devnull@genjerdan.com> wrote:
On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 00:12:36 -0700, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
jerry wrote:
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the
history about that.
Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency.
And deceitful, apparently. A Dutch uncle is not a real uncle, a
Dutch oven is not a real oven, Dutch courage is not real courage,
and a Dutch treat is no treat at all.
Or so it is claimed by armchair etymologists. I would hate for it
to be stated so often without challenge that it is believed to be
true.
A Dutch treat *is* a kind of treat, just with a different
financial arrangement than you, Poet Fury, appear to like. A Dutch
oven *is* a kind of oven, in which food is baked, and it appears
to be as old or older than the ovens in stoves. A Dutch uncle
*might* be an uncle, it is some who speaks to you sternly, and
it's usually used as a simile anyway ("like a Dutch uncle"). The
courage *is* a kind of courage, but it's one whose source is
alcohol.
So, these completely fail to demonstrate that "Dutch" ever meant
"not" or "false."
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That's very true, but the addition of "Dutch" to "courage" and "uncle"
*does* include an implication that the thing is less desirable than the
unqualified versions. (I'd agree that it's not the case for "Dutch
oven", any more than it would be for "Dutch barn" or "Dutch door".)
| Quote: | It may have in some other compounds, but it didn't here. No more
than "French toast" means "not toast" or "Spanish rice" means "not
rice."
|
The negation may not be there, but I'd have said that the derogatory
comparison with the unqualified versions is certainly there for
"treat", "uncle" and "courage".
Here's a list from Collins of words preceded by "Dutch"; I think the
one's I've marked with an asterisk would normally be taken to
imply falsity or inferiority:
auction
barn
cap (2 meanings)
*courage
*disease (deindustrialisation)
doll
door
elm
*gold
guinea pig
hoe
mattress
medicine
*metal
oven
*rise
rush
*treat
*uncle
*wife
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:23 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:48:17 +0100, the renowned Peter Duncanson
<mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 14:12:23 +0200, Poet Fury <devnull@genjerdan.com> wrote:
and a Dutch treat is
no treat at all.
A Dutch treat *is* a treat to the person who is paying for only him/herself,
and not for others as well.
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To "treat" someone is to pay for *their* food, drink or entertainment.
A "Dutch treat" is thus not a treat. No point getting your Dutch up
about it- many terms involving nationalities are negative. I hope I'm
not in Dutch with Donna now.
I don't see anything negative about Dutch oven, Dutch auction, Dutch
door, Dutch hoe or "going Dutch". According to AH4, "Dutch Cheese"
"Chiefly Northern U.S." is used to refer to cottage cheese.
We also have "Dutchman" (something use to conceal faulty
construction), and "Dutch metal" (a cheap immitation of gold leaf made
from copper and zinc).
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Poet Fury
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:33:00 +0200, Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Or so it is claimed by armchair etymologists. I would hate for it to be
stated so often without challenge that it is believed to be true.
|
Ah. I see we we're not a bunch of old National Lampoon fans here...
--
http://www.genjerdan.com/nvm/tdis/index.html
Of course it's music. It has notes in it, doesn't it? |
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John Ings
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 9:57 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 15:04:31 GMT, Harvey Van Sickle
<harvey.news@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Here's a list from Collins of words preceded by "Dutch"; I think the
one's I've marked with an asterisk would normally be taken to
imply falsity or inferiority:
auction
barn
cap (2 meanings)
*courage
*disease (deindustrialisation)
doll
door
elm
*gold
guinea pig
hoe
mattress
medicine
*metal
oven
*rise
rush
*treat
*uncle
*wife
|
Perhaps it shoud be mentioned that some of these might be
americanisms. In the US in past decades "Dutch" often meant
German, as opposed to Hollander. From Deutsch -> German. |
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J. J. Lodder
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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Poet Fury <devnull@genjerdan.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 00:12:36 -0700, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
jerry wrote:
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about that
..
Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency.
And deceitful, apparently. A Dutch uncle is not a real uncle, a Dutch oven
is not a real oven, Dutch courage is not real courage, and a Dutch treat is
no treat at all.
|
Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...
Jan |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:00 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:31:03 +0200, the renowned
nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:
| Quote: | Poet Fury <devnull@genjerdan.com> wrote:
On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 00:12:36 -0700, Carmen L. Abruzzi wrote:
jerry wrote:
Why do people use that word, "Dutch"? I want to know the history about that
.
Once upon a time, about the seventeenth century, the
Anglophones loved to denigrate the Dutch as sleazy, wanton
bastards without even a modicum of decency.
And deceitful, apparently. A Dutch uncle is not a real uncle, a Dutch oven
is not a real oven, Dutch courage is not real courage, and a Dutch treat is
no treat at all.
Sure, and a 'Dutch wife" ...
Jan
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"An open frame constructed of cane, originally used in the Dutch East
Indies and other hot countries to rest the limbs in bed; also a
bolster used for the same purpose. Called thus because it was round,
fat and just lay there."
Here is what a Japanese-style "Datch Waifu" looks like:
http://www.orient-doll.com/
And a list of "Dutch" expressions. Unfortunately, without sources.
http://homepages.cwi.nl/~sjoerd/dutch.html
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: "Go Dutch" |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | The courage *is* a kind of courage,
but it's one whose source is alcohol.
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And, more particularly, I was told it referred at first to that
magnificent Dutch invention, gin (not in Partridge or Brewer,
though). I see from Partridge that "Dutch" was also slang for "beer"
in 1650.
| Quote: |
So, these completely fail to demonstrate that "Dutch" ever meant
"not"
or "false." It may have in some other compounds, but it didn't
here.
No more than "French toast" means "not toast" or "Spanish rice"
means
"not rice."
|
But we can all agree on "American coffee" and "Australian lager", I
think.
Mike. |
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