| Author |
Message |
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
|
Agreed. Other things to watch out for, according to my teachers:
overly repeated "to the", "of a", etc.; forms of "be", especially forms
of "there is" and the anticipatory "it is"; words such as "of course",
"so", "however".
To paraphrase John Fredrick Nims, nouns are bones, verbs are muscle,
and adjectives and adverbs are fat.
Of course, a man without visible fat would look scary or pitiful, and a
woman without fat would look even worse. Sometimes the perfect
modifier is... perfect.
--
Jerry Friedman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
|
It's certainly among the general principles of sub-editing that
adjectives are guilty until proved innocent, while adverbs are to be
shot without trial. But it's only a general principle: this message
would collapse without the suspects.
Shakespeare is the top gun, of course. At random...Sonnet 130, _My
Mistress' eyes are nothing like the Sun_, has four adverbs ("nothing"
once, "more" three times) and ten adjectives (six of them colours,
with "red" and "white" repeated). 129, _Th'expense of Spirit in a
waste of shame_, is crammed with adjectives, but the only adverbs
there are "straight" and "well"; the adjectives, though, _are_ the
sense rather than mere amplification of nouns.
Mike.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stan Brown
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in alt.usage.english:
| Quote: | The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
|
If her "most" refers not to most adjectives and adverbs in the
language but to most adjectives and adverbs found in random samples
of writing, then I agree heartily. Too many are mere intensifiers.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"And if you're afraid of butter, which many people are nowa-
days, (long pause) you just put in cream." --Julia Child |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:301nk3F2qn6iuU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
It's certainly among the general principles of sub-editing that
adjectives are guilty until proved innocent, while adverbs are to be
shot without trial. But it's only a general principle: this message
would collapse without the suspects.
|
Arguably, you could have omitted "certainly" without major damage. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
It's certainly among the general principles of sub-editing that
adjectives are guilty until proved innocent, while adverbs are to be
shot without trial. But it's only a general principle: this message
would collapse without the suspects.
Shakespeare is the top gun, of course. At random...Sonnet 130, _My
Mistress' eyes are nothing like the Sun_, has four adverbs ("nothing"
once, "more" three times) and ten adjectives (six of them colours,
with "red" and "white" repeated). 129, _Th'expense of Spirit in a
waste of shame_, is crammed with adjectives, but the only adverbs
there are "straight" and "well";
|
And "well" is there only for the rhyme. "Straight" might not be
necessary either.
| Quote: | the adjectives, though, _are_ the
sense rather than mere amplification of nouns.
|
Nonsense. It's clearly better to say
till action, lust
Is perjury, murder, blood, fullness of blame,
Savagery, extremity, rudeness, cruelty, unworthiness of trust.
--
Jerry Friedman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:301nk3F2qn6iuU1@uni-berlin.de...
don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
It's certainly among the general principles of sub-editing that
adjectives are guilty until proved innocent, while adverbs are to
be
shot without trial. But it's only a general principle: this
message
would collapse without the suspects.
Arguably, you could have omitted "certainly" without major damage.
|
Yes, I did think about it -- not long and hard, but at least I
thought -- but I decided that it did make a slight contribution to
what I wanted to say. I felt it made a pair with the "but" of the
following sentence; perhaps it was even some form of courtesy to
Don's instructor. Perhaps that's what can be wrong with adverbs: do
they sometimes announce mood rather than conveying information?
(Would Areff here interject "NTTAWWT"?)
Mike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
Shakespeare is the top gun, of course. At random...Sonnet 130, _My
Mistress' eyes are nothing like the Sun_, has four adverbs
("nothing"
once, "more" three times) and ten adjectives (six of them colours,
with "red" and "white" repeated). 129, _Th'expense of Spirit in a
waste of shame_, is crammed with adjectives, but the only adverbs
there are "straight" and "well";
And "well" is there only for the rhyme. "Straight" might not be
necessary either.
|
Aren't you being a bit severe? The two "well"s are neat enough
word-play; I imagine that "hell" was in his mind first, of course, so
that far I'll go with you. As for "straight", it pairs perfectly with
"no sooner".
| Quote: |
the adjectives, though, _are_ the
sense rather than mere amplification of nouns.
Nonsense. It's clearly better to say
till action, lust
Is perjury, murder, blood, fullness of blame,
Savagery, extremity, rudeness, cruelty, unworthiness of trust.
|
I don't fancy your metre much!
Mike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:301q66F2q3vpdU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | Jess Askin wrote:
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:301nk3F2qn6iuU1@uni-berlin.de...
don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
It's certainly among the general principles of sub-editing that
adjectives are guilty until proved innocent, while adverbs are to
be
shot without trial. But it's only a general principle: this
message
would collapse without the suspects.
Arguably, you could have omitted "certainly" without major damage.
Yes, I did think about it -- not long and hard, but at least I
thought -- but I decided that it did make a slight contribution to
what I wanted to say. I felt it made a pair with the "but" of the
following sentence; perhaps it was even some form of courtesy to
Don's instructor. Perhaps that's what can be wrong with adverbs: do
they sometimes announce mood rather than conveying information?
(Would Areff here interject "NTTAWWT"?)
|
Oh, I was kidding, your sentence is fine as is.
I think people often use adverbs to shade the rhetorical strength of what
they're saying, rather as an artist in pastels might use a piece of tissue
paper. It's tempting to throw in "very," "probably," "supposedly," and, yes,
"certainly" and "arguably," rather than to look at the important words in
the sentence to see if they actually say what you want them to. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote:
Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
Shakespeare is the top gun, of course. At random...Sonnet 130, _My
Mistress' eyes are nothing like the Sun_, has four adverbs
("nothing"
once, "more" three times) and ten adjectives (six of them colours,
with "red" and "white" repeated). 129, _Th'expense of Spirit in a
waste of shame_, is crammed with adjectives, but the only adverbs
there are "straight" and "well";
And "well" is there only for the rhyme. "Straight" might not be
necessary either.
Aren't you being a bit severe? The two "well"s are neat enough
word-play;
|
Not his best, if you want my opinion (I mean "unvarnished opinion).
It's just repetition with the order reversed; "knows well" means the
same thing both times.
I imagine that "hell" was in his mind first, of course, so
| Quote: | that far I'll go with you. As for "straight", it pairs perfectly with
"no sooner".
|
I'd say "no sooner" makes "straight" redundant, though it's not
Shakespeare's most redundantest pleonasm of all.
| Quote: | the adjectives, though, _are_ the
sense rather than mere amplification of nouns.
Nonsense. It's clearly better to say
till action, lust
Is perjury, murder, blood, fullness of blame,
Savagery, extremity, rudeness, cruelty, unworthiness of trust.
I don't fancy your metre much!
|
Does that mean you don't want to see "With the Kids", my improvement on
Yeats?
--
Jerry Friedman hopes this isn't a near duplicate of an earlier post. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
|
I'd like to know what's on her list of 'poems where adverbs are needed
only due to the weakness of the chosen verb' and poems where adjectives
are needed only 'due to the inaccuracy of the noun'.
Because, frankly, it sounds like horseshit.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
In article <301nk3F2qn6iuU1@uni-berlin.de>, Mike Lyle at
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk exposited:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
It's certainly among the general principles of sub-editing that
adjectives are guilty until proved innocent, while adverbs are to be
shot without trial. But it's only a general principle: this message
would collapse without the suspects.
Shakespeare is the top gun, of course. At random...Sonnet 130, _My
Mistress' eyes are nothing like the Sun_, has four adverbs ("nothing"
once, "more" three times) and ten adjectives (six of them colours,
with "red" and "white" repeated). 129, _Th'expense of Spirit in a
waste of shame_, is crammed with adjectives, but the only adverbs
there are "straight" and "well"; the adjectives, though, _are_ the
sense rather than mere amplification of nouns.
|
Thanks, Mike. All the others likewise.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
In article <cngpbj$jrg$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean at
john-dean@frag.lineone.net exposited:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
I'd like to know what's on her list of 'poems where adverbs are needed
only due to the weakness of the chosen verb' and poems where adjectives
are needed only 'due to the inaccuracy of the noun'.
Because, frankly, it sounds like horseshit.
|
I don't think she means poetry specifically, rather writing in
general. She also teaches writing courses. I'll look back through
my old papers and find an example or two...
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Lyle
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:04 am
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:301q66F2q3vpdU1@uni-berlin.de...
Jess Askin wrote:
"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:301nk3F2qn6iuU1@uni-berlin.de...
don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and
often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only
due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to
the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more
accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed
assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
It's certainly among the general principles of sub-editing that
adjectives are guilty until proved innocent, while adverbs are
to
be
shot without trial. But it's only a general principle: this
message
would collapse without the suspects.
Arguably, you could have omitted "certainly" without major
damage.
Yes, I did think about it -- not long and hard, but at least I
thought -- but I decided that it did make a slight contribution to
what I wanted to say. I felt it made a pair with the "but" of the
following sentence; perhaps it was even some form of courtesy to
Don's instructor. Perhaps that's what can be wrong with adverbs:
do
they sometimes announce mood rather than conveying information?
(Would Areff here interject "NTTAWWT"?)
Oh, I was kidding, your sentence is fine as is.
I think people often use adverbs to shade the rhetorical strength
of
what they're saying, rather as an artist in pastels might use a
piece
of tissue paper. It's tempting to throw in "very," "probably,"
"supposedly," and, yes, "certainly" and "arguably," rather than to
look at the important words in the sentence to see if they actually
say what you want them to.
|
Intoirely.
Mike. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Dean
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Ad[verbs/jectives] |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | In article <cngpbj$jrg$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>, John Dean at
john-dean@frag.lineone.net exposited:
don groves wrote:
The instructor of the poetry seminar I'm currently attending is
of the opinion that adverbs and adjectives are overused and often
reflect poor writing. She claims most adverbs are needed only due
to the weakness of the chosen verb and most adjectives due to the
inaccuracy of the noun. Choosing stronger verbs and more accurate
nouns will eliminate many (most?) adverbs and adjectives.
My tendency is to agree but comments from this esteemed assembly
will be greatly appreciated.
I'd like to know what's on her list of 'poems where adverbs are
needed only due to the weakness of the chosen verb' and poems where
adjectives are needed only 'due to the inaccuracy of the noun'.
Because, frankly, it sounds like horseshit.
I don't think she means poetry specifically, rather writing in
general. She also teaches writing courses. I'll look back through
my old papers and find an example or two...
|
Ah! I was confused by the reference to 'poetry seminar'.
BTW, is the phrase "stronger verbs" one of hers? Does she use the
adjective because she's picked an inaccurate noun? And did you use
'currently' because you chose a weak verb in 'attending'?
--
John Dean
Oxford |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in