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Raymond
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:03 pm
Post subject: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, their g |
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Dear all,
I read in the preface to Frankenstein, the following sentence which,
to me, is grammatically dubious. Please look at the following:
The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends left
me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent scenes
which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions. The following
tale is the only one which has been completed.
The question lies in the part starting with 'and lost, in the
magnificent scenes which they present...' Is there anything wrong with
'they present'? Does the verbal form fail to be suffixed for tense? Or
is this some sort of subjunctive?
I would appreciate your replies.
Ray
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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Raymond wrote on 17 Nov 2004:
| Quote: | Dear all,
I read in the preface to Frankenstein, the following sentence
which, to me, is grammatically dubious. Please look at the
following:
The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends
left me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent
scenes which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions.
The following tale is the only one which has been completed.
The question lies in the part starting with 'and lost, in the
magnificent scenes which they present...' Is there anything wrong
with 'they present'? Does the verbal form fail to be suffixed for
tense? Or is this some sort of subjunctive?
I would appreciate your replies.
|
Those magnificent scenes are habitually presented by the Alps, so there
is no need for a past-tense marker. It's a stylistic choice;
"presented" would also be grammatically correct. "They present" is the
simple, habitual present, and not a subjunctive.
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Martin Ambuhl
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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Raymond wrote:
| Quote: | Dear all,
I read in the preface to Frankenstein, the following sentence which,
to me, is grammatically dubious. Please look at the following:
The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends left
me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent scenes
which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions. The following
tale is the only one which has been completed.
The question lies in the part starting with 'and lost, in the
magnificent scenes which they present...' Is there anything wrong with
'they present'? Does the verbal form fail to be suffixed for tense? Or
is this some sort of subjunctive?
I would appreciate your replies.
|
The Alps, as far as particular people are concerned, present their
magnificent scenes timelessly. This is a normal use of the present
tense. Geologists' mileage may vary.
Are you suggesting that for some reason the verb should be 'presented'?
When did the Alps stop presenting these scenes?
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Stan Brown
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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"Raymond" <raymondaliasapollyon@yahoo.com.tw> wrote in
alt.usage.english:
(quoting from /Frankenstein/)
| Quote: | The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends left
me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent scenes
which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions.
The question lies in the part starting with 'and lost, in the
magnificent scenes which they present...' Is there anything wrong with
'they present'?
|
The antecedent of "they" is "Alps", not "friends" -- you could
rephrase as "In the magnificent scenes which the Alps present [i.e.
show], my two friends lost all memory of. ..."
I'm less sure whether "their ghostly visions" is meant to be ghostly
visions of the Alps, or ghostly visions in the memories of the
friends.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"And if you're afraid of butter, which many people are nowa-
days, (long pause) you just put in cream." --Julia Child |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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In article <479bb178.0411170738.4412b12b@posting.google.com>,
Raymond at raymondaliasapollyon@yahoo.com.tw exposited:
| Quote: | Dear all,
I read in the preface to Frankenstein, the following sentence which,
to me, is grammatically dubious. Please look at the following:
The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends left
me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent scenes
which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions. The following
tale is the only one which has been completed.
The question lies in the part starting with 'and lost, in the
magnificent scenes which they present...' Is there anything wrong with
'they present'? Does the verbal form fail to be suffixed for tense? Or
is this some sort of subjunctive?
I would appreciate your replies.
|
I think a modern English teacher would jump all over the
seemingly conflicted referents of "they" and "their". Writers
nowadays are expected to lead the reader by the nose through
pontentially treacherous waters as these and, in that, much
beauty of the language is lost.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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"Ray" asks about:
| Quote: | The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends left
me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent scenes
which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions. The following
tale is the only one which has been completed.
|
Martin Ambuhl writes:
| Quote: | The Alps, as far as particular people are concerned, present their
magnificent scenes timelessly. This is a normal use of the present
tense...
|
I agree.
| Quote: | Are you suggesting that for some reason the verb should be 'presented'?
When did the Alps stop presenting these scenes?
|
I would say that "presented" would also be correct. This choice would
focus attention on the scenery *as seen by the two friends*, although
this might very well be the same scenery seen today. Of the two versions,
though, I prefer the original.
--
Mark Brader "People who think for a living have always
Toronto been especially prone to confuse thinking
msb@vex.net with living." -- G. L. Sicherman |
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John Varela
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:38:26 UTC, raymondaliasapollyon@yahoo.com.tw (Raymond)
wrote:
| Quote: | Dear all,
I read in the preface to Frankenstein, the following sentence which,
to me, is grammatically dubious. Please look at the following:
The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends left
me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent scenes
which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions. The following
tale is the only one which has been completed.
The question lies in the part starting with 'and lost, in the
magnificent scenes which they present...' Is there anything wrong with
'they present'? Does the verbal form fail to be suffixed for tense? Or
is this some sort of subjunctive?
I would appreciate your replies.
|
It's a difficult sentence because of the shifting antecedents of the
prepositions. It would be easier if instead of "they present" it said "they
saw" so that the antecedent was always "my two friends".
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:02 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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In article <ZKRm3c4Ddl7U-pn2-QBCeYtVl0HSf@dialup-
4.249.9.59.Dial1.Washington2.Level3.net>, John Varela at
OLDlamps@earthlink.net exposited:
| Quote: | On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 15:38:26 UTC, raymondaliasapollyon@yahoo.com.tw (Raymond)
wrote:
Dear all,
I read in the preface to Frankenstein, the following sentence which,
to me, is grammatically dubious. Please look at the following:
The weather, however, suddenly became serene; and my two friends left
me on a journey among the Alps and lost, in the magnificent scenes
which they present, all memory of their ghostly visions. The following
tale is the only one which has been completed.
The question lies in the part starting with 'and lost, in the
magnificent scenes which they present...' Is there anything wrong with
'they present'? Does the verbal form fail to be suffixed for tense? Or
is this some sort of subjunctive?
I would appreciate your replies.
It's a difficult sentence because of the shifting antecedents of the
prepositions. It would be easier if instead of "they present" it said "they
saw" so that the antecedent was always "my two friends".
|
Pronouns?
I commented on this aspect earlier. Your suggestion makes the
sentence easier to understand but I still like the original
better. If anything, I would leave out the "which" and simply
say, "in the magnificent scenes they present".
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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John Varela
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:06 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:44:29 UTC, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm>
wrote:
| Quote: | I'm less sure whether "their ghostly visions" is meant to be ghostly
visions of the Alps, or ghostly visions in the memories of the
friends.
|
The ghostly visions are the scary stories they had been inventing to entertain
one another. Only "Frankenstein" made it into print.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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In alt.usage.english, John Varela wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 19:44:29 UTC, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm
I'm less sure whether "their ghostly visions" is meant to be ghostly
visions of the Alps, or ghostly visions in the memories of the
friends.
The ghostly visions are the scary stories they had been inventing to entertain
one another. Only "Frankenstein" made it into print.
|
That's what the preface seems to say but it's not strictly true.
The competition involved four people - John Polidori, Mr and Mrs
Shelley, and Lord Byron. (Byron's official mistress, also present, was
excluded.)
Dr Polidori's story was all about a skull-headed lady who peeped through
a keyhole, saw something shocking and (presumably after several other
adventures) was buried alongside the Capulets.
Percy Byshe Shelley's story, despite a promising beginning -- the
highly-strung Mr Shelley (who came from Kent, or perhaps Sussex: a good
chap) looked at his wife and, tipsy with the hysteria they had all so
self-consciously created, ran screaming from the room, tormented by a
sudden memory of something someone had once said to him about a woman
who had eyes instead of nipples -- his story came to nothing. Shelley
'soon got bored with his story based on the experiences of his early
life.' (Fiona MacCarthy's _Byron: Life and Legend_.)
Mary Shelley's story became _Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus_.
Byron's tale was about an aristocratic vampire, Augustus Darvell. He
didn't bother to finish it (though it was later published, in his own
words, under his own name, in a volume including _Mazeppa_).
But Dr Polidori was no fool. He soon wrote his own version of Byron's
story and had it published under Byron's name (1819). This book, _The
Vampyre_,
established the cult of vampirism in England and the continent,
a mania which culminated with the publication of Bram Stoker's
_Dracula_ in 1897.
So a single country-house weekend of boredom and preciousness in 1816
not only inspired two centuries of Horror but, if Shelley's wobbly is to
be believed, also anticipated Freud and the Surrealists by two
centuries.
--
Mickwick |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: lost, in the magnificent scenes which they present, the |
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In alt.usage.english, Mickwick wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | but, if Shelley's wobbly is to be believed, also anticipated Freud and
the Surrealists by two centuries.
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Lobsters!
Make that 'one century'.
--
Mickwick |
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