| Author |
Message |
halcombe
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:00 pm
Post subject: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers according to
the formula ‘River X' – as: ‘the River Thames', ‘the River Avon', etc.
In the US, the name is ‘X River' – as: ‘the Colorado River', the
‘Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?) follow the
domestic rule?
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Mark Barratt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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halcombe wrote:
| Quote: | In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula ‘River X' – as: ‘the River Thames',
‘the River Avon', etc.
|
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
| Quote: | In the US, the name is ‘X River' – as: ‘the Colorado River', the
‘Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?)
follow the domestic rule?
|
Which is the domestic rule?
I think it depends upon the speaker, not the location of the
river. I (a Brit) say 'The River Amazon', 'The River Nile', 'The
River Danube', etc. I suspect that an American would go for the
American word order, right?
--
Mark Barratt
Budapest |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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Mark Barratt filted:
| Quote: |
halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula ‘River X' – as: ‘the River Thames',
‘the River Avon', etc.
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
In the US, the name is ‘X River' – as: ‘the Colorado River', the
‘Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?)
follow the domestic rule?
Which is the domestic rule?
I think it depends upon the speaker, not the location of the
river. I (a Brit) say 'The River Amazon', 'The River Nile', 'The
River Danube', etc. I suspect that an American would go for the
American word order, right?
|
For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this American would
omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the case for any river the
listener is likely to recognize as such: "The Yenisey", "The Congo", "The
Brahmaputra", "The Orinoco"...we'd only use the generic term in the case of a
river that had the same name as another equally prominent feature ("The Arkansas
River") or had a very generic name ("The Red River", "The Snake River")....
The only ones where my inclination is to put "River" first are "The Rio Grande",
"The River Styx", and "The River Lethe", two of which seldom come up when giving
directions....r
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John Seeliger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cndlrk01rp@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | Mark Barratt filted:
halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula 'River X' - as: 'the River Thames',
'the River Avon', etc.
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
In the US, the name is 'X River' - as: 'the Colorado River', the
'Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?)
follow the domestic rule?
Which is the domestic rule?
I think it depends upon the speaker, not the location of the
river. I (a Brit) say 'The River Amazon', 'The River Nile', 'The
River Danube', etc. I suspect that an American would go for the
American word order, right?
For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this American
would
omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the case for any river the
listener is likely to recognize as such: "The Yenisey", "The Congo", "The
Brahmaputra", "The Orinoco"...we'd only use the generic term in the case
of a
river that had the same name as another equally prominent feature ("The
Arkansas
River") or had a very generic name ("The Red River", "The Snake
River")....
|
How about "The Ohio"? Does that need a "River" after it. BTW, maybe "The
Ohio State University" is named after the river.
| Quote: |
The only ones where my inclination is to put "River" first are "The Rio
Grande",
"The River Styx", and "The River Lethe", two of which seldom come up when
giving
directions....r
|
River Jordan comes to mind too. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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Mark Barratt wrote:
| Quote: | halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula 'River X' - as: 'the River Thames',
'the River Avon', etc.
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
[...] |
The ones I think of are those few where the river is named after a
place, like the Helford River. "The London River" is sometimes used
of the lower Thames.
A very few don't have "river" in their names at all: Blackwater alone
comes to mind, but I think there are more than one of that name. Then
there's the Humber, which is only the estuary.
Mike. |
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Ray Heindl
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote:
| Quote: | For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this
American would omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the
case for any river the listener is likely to recognize as such:
"The Yenisey", "The Congo", "The Brahmaputra", "The
Orinoco"...we'd only use the generic term in the case of a river
that had the same name as another equally prominent feature ("The
Arkansas River") or had a very generic name ("The Red River", "The
Snake River")....
|
The Arkansas River is a special case, as it's not necessarily
pronounced the same as the state. So "The Arkansas" would need "river"
less than, say, "The Ohio" or "The Missouri". But in any case, the
"The" makes the "River" superfluous in most contexts. But in an
adjectival phrase, such as "an Ohio River town", the "River" is needed.
| Quote: | The only ones where my inclination is to put "River" first are
"The Rio Grande", "The River Styx", and "The River Lethe", two of
which seldom come up when giving directions....r
|
Wouldn't "The River Rio Grande" sound a bit odd, not to mention
redundant?
--
Ray Heindl
(remove the Xs to reply to: xvortren-news@yaxhoo.com) |
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Jordan Abel
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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halcombe wrote:
| Quote: | In the US, the name is 'X River' - as: 'the Colorado River', the
'Connecticut River'.
|
IFYSQ.
That's true in for English names of rivers - however, e.g. "Rio Grande" for
Spanish names used in English |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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"John Seeliger" <jseelige@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:2vv7bjF2l4s3iU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | "R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cndlrk01rp@drn.newsguy.com...
Mark Barratt filted:
halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula 'River X' - as: 'the River Thames',
'the River Avon', etc.
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
In the US, the name is 'X River' - as: 'the Colorado River', the
'Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?)
follow the domestic rule?
Which is the domestic rule?
I think it depends upon the speaker, not the location of the
river. I (a Brit) say 'The River Amazon', 'The River Nile', 'The
River Danube', etc. I suspect that an American would go for the
American word order, right?
For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this
American
would
omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the case for any river
the
listener is likely to recognize as such: "The Yenisey", "The Congo",
"The
Brahmaputra", "The Orinoco"...we'd only use the generic term in the case
of a
river that had the same name as another equally prominent feature ("The
Arkansas
River") or had a very generic name ("The Red River", "The Snake
River")....
How about "The Ohio"? Does that need a "River" after it.
|
"On the Banks of the Ohio" is a well-known folk song.
| Quote: | BTW, maybe "The
Ohio State University" is named after the river.
|
Leave out the "The" for best form. The university is named for the state,
but I'm not sure whether the state or the river was named first. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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Ray Heindl filted:
| Quote: |
R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote:
The only ones where my inclination is to put "River" first are
"The Rio Grande", "The River Styx", and "The River Lethe", two of
which seldom come up when giving directions....r
Wouldn't "The River Rio Grande" sound a bit odd, not to mention
redundant?
|
That's why I didn't say it....
(Isn't there one in Saudi Arabia with the English name "The Wadi River"?)...r |
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John Seeliger
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote in message
news:cne3pv$rh4$1@news.netins.net...
| Quote: |
"John Seeliger" <jseelige@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:2vv7bjF2l4s3iU1@uni-berlin.de...
"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cndlrk01rp@drn.newsguy.com...
Mark Barratt filted:
halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula 'River X' - as: 'the River Thames',
'the River Avon', etc.
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
In the US, the name is 'X River' - as: 'the Colorado River', the
'Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?)
follow the domestic rule?
Which is the domestic rule?
I think it depends upon the speaker, not the location of the
river. I (a Brit) say 'The River Amazon', 'The River Nile', 'The
River Danube', etc. I suspect that an American would go for the
American word order, right?
For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this
American
would
omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the case for any river
the
listener is likely to recognize as such: "The Yenisey", "The Congo",
"The
Brahmaputra", "The Orinoco"...we'd only use the generic term in the
case
of a
river that had the same name as another equally prominent feature ("The
Arkansas
River") or had a very generic name ("The Red River", "The Snake
River")....
How about "The Ohio"? Does that need a "River" after it.
"On the Banks of the Ohio" is a well-known folk song.
BTW, maybe "The
Ohio State University" is named after the river.
Leave out the "The" for best form. The university is named for the state,
but I'm not sure whether the state or the river was named first.
|
But "The" is part of the name of OSU. See http://www.osu.edu/index.php:
"Welcome to The Ohio State University" |
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raymond o'hara
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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..
| Quote: |
BTW, maybe "The
Ohio State University" is named after the river.
Leave out the "The" for best form. The university is named for the state,
but I'm not sure whether the state or the river was named first.
|
The state is named for the river. In just about every case where there is
a state and river with the same name the river was named first, in fact most
of the the rivers were so named before there were any American states. |
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Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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In message <2vvaj8F2qtqdnU1@uni-berlin.de>, Mike Lyle
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes
| Quote: | Mark Barratt wrote:
halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula 'River X' - as: 'the River Thames',
'the River Avon', etc.
|
River Avon is a trick.
| Quote: |
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
[...]
The ones I think of are those few where the river is named after a
place, like the Helford River. "The London River" is sometimes used
of the lower Thames.
A very few don't have "river" in their names at all: Blackwater alone
comes to mind, but I think there are more than one of that name. Then
there's the Humber, which is only the estuary.
|
"The river Tamar" doesn't sound right, except when gurgling. But what
do I know, I'm not Cornish. I like their river names - cross the Camel,
and skip to the Looe.
Having written that, I thought I'd better look up the Looe, and find
them named on a Bartholomew[1] half-inch(ed) map of 1962 as W. Looe R.
and E. Looe R., so here are two exceptions - the West and East Looe
Rivers. There's also one marked Old Canal, but I have nagging doubts
about that one.
[1] Of Edinburgh, so foreign.
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo! |
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Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:04 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
|
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"raymond o'hara" <reoh@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cVwmd.619646$8_6.145608@attbi_s04...
| Quote: | .
BTW, maybe "The
Ohio State University" is named after the river.
Leave out the "The" for best form. The university is named for the
state,
but I'm not sure whether the state or the river was named first.
The state is named for the river. In just about every case where there
is
a state and river with the same name the river was named first, in fact
most
of the the rivers were so named before there were any American states.
|
Yeah, I should have said territory instead of state. But probably the river
is first anyway. |
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Jess Askin
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:04 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
|
|
"John Seeliger" <jseelige@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:2vvj7iF2pqh8tU1@uni-berlin.de...
| Quote: | "Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote in message
news:cne3pv$rh4$1@news.netins.net...
"John Seeliger" <jseelige@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:2vv7bjF2l4s3iU1@uni-berlin.de...
"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cndlrk01rp@drn.newsguy.com...
Mark Barratt filted:
halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula 'River X' - as: 'the River Thames',
'the River Avon', etc.
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
In the US, the name is 'X River' - as: 'the Colorado River', the
'Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?)
follow the domestic rule?
Which is the domestic rule?
I think it depends upon the speaker, not the location of the
river. I (a Brit) say 'The River Amazon', 'The River Nile', 'The
River Danube', etc. I suspect that an American would go for the
American word order, right?
For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this
American
would
omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the case for any river
the
listener is likely to recognize as such: "The Yenisey", "The Congo",
"The
Brahmaputra", "The Orinoco"...we'd only use the generic term in the
case
of a
river that had the same name as another equally prominent feature
("The
Arkansas
River") or had a very generic name ("The Red River", "The Snake
River")....
How about "The Ohio"? Does that need a "River" after it.
"On the Banks of the Ohio" is a well-known folk song.
BTW, maybe "The
Ohio State University" is named after the river.
Leave out the "The" for best form. The university is named for the
state,
but I'm not sure whether the state or the river was named first.
But "The" is part of the name of OSU. See http://www.osu.edu/index.php:
"Welcome to The Ohio State University"
|
There's a discrepancy between what they want to be called officially and
what everybody actually says. |
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dcw
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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In article <d7fa3848.0411161024.3900aee1@posting.google.com>,
halcombe <halcombe@subdimension.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers according to
the formula ‘River X' – as: ‘the River Thames', ‘the River Avon', etc.
In the US, the name is ‘X River' – as: ‘the Colorado River', the
‘Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?) follow the
domestic rule?
|
In England, geographical terms derived from French (river, lake, mount,
....) generally come before the name; native English terms (stream, mere,
hill, ...) come after.
David |
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