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John Varela
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 22:16:23 UTC, Ray Heindl <me@privacy.net> wrote:
| Quote: | But in an
adjectival phrase, such as "an Ohio River town", the "River" is needed.
|
As is the capitalization. "An Ohio river town" would be a town on a river
somewhere in Ohio, while "an Ohio River town" would be a town on the Ohio
River not necessarily in the State of Ohio. My wife was born in an Ohio River
town in Illinois and I was born in a Mississippi River town in Louisiana.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much.
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John Varela
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 23:14:54 UTC, Jordan Abel <jmabel@purdue.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | halcombe wrote:
In the US, the name is 'X River' - as: 'the Colorado River', the
'Connecticut River'.
IFYSQ.
That's true in for English names of rivers - however, e.g. "Rio Grande" for
Spanish names used in English
|
On the contrary, we have the Colorado River and the Los Angeles River and any
number of others.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. |
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Laura F Spira
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:02 am
Post subject: Cycles [was Re: 'River X' or 'X River'?] |
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Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: |
OT: This isn't in the slightest intended as a criticism: it just
interests me. Is there any kind of formula which might predict how
often a topic will be repeated in a given newsgroup? (We talked about
the "Lake X/X Lake" thing about two months ago, I think.) Is it
random? Does it depend on the nature of the group? Etc? I quite like
reinforcement and the odd turns these things often take, so I repeat
that this isn't a complaint.
|
I think I'd been reading aue for about two years before I became really
conscious of the cyclical nature of most topics but I think it's
probably random. Someone with time on their hands might do a proper
analysis.
Another interesting thing is how the same topics sometimes crop up in
different groups at the same time, without crossposting, even though
there appears to be no commonality in posters or any external event that
might have prompted the discussion.
Must be nearly time for Torpenhow again...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> writes:
| Quote: | Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
R H Draney writes:
(Isn't there one in Saudi Arabia with the English name "The Wadi
River"?)...r
There's one in Texas called the Guadalupe River, which apparently
comes from mixed Arabic and Spanish "Wadi al-Lupe" (Wolf River) or
perhaps Arabic "Wadi al-Lubb", which would be something like "River
of the Core/Kernel/Essence".
Isn't the one flowing through San Jose also a "Guadalupe River"?
|
"Also" in an orthographic sense, but not, I believe, in a
pronunciation sense. The one in California is the /,guAd@'lupeI/ while
the one in Texas, according to MWCD11, is the /'guAd@,lup/.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It is error alone which needs the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |support of government. Truth can
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stand by itself.
| Thomas Jefferson
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Cycles [was Re: 'River X' or 'X River'?] |
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Graeme Thomas <graeme@graemet.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <1gnh3yt.do5lzs14js0m6N%trio@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
trio@euronet.nl> writes
Laura F Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
Must be nearly time for Torpenhow again...
Someone just did, no joke. Yesterday, I think. They didn't say
"Torpenhow" but something about "that Welsh Hill Hill Hill."
Has it moved to Wales? I must keep track ...
|
You'd think I'd have learned by now not to trust my memory. (But 24
hours?) It was Harvey, and he didn't say Wales.
I was actually busy at that moment trying to remember who it was who
proposed some Godwin's-Law-like variant, that all placename discussions
tend to lead to Torpenhow. I didn't look that one up, either... Well,
the first thing I see, going backwards by date, is that *Harvey*
mentioned the concept two months ago. And then in 200l I find:
Is Torpenhow a sort of corollary to Godwin's Law, a predictor of
thread death for Funny Place Names discussions? We can only hope.
Written by -- me.
Am I winning or losing?
--
Aargh - Donna Richoux |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> writes:
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
R H Draney writes:
(Isn't there one in Saudi Arabia with the English name "The Wadi
River"?)...r
There's one in Texas called the Guadalupe River, which apparently
comes from mixed Arabic and Spanish "Wadi al-Lupe" (Wolf River) or
perhaps Arabic "Wadi al-Lubb", which would be something like "River
of the Core/Kernel/Essence".
Isn't the one flowing through San Jose also a "Guadalupe River"?
"Also" in an orthographic sense, but not, I believe, in a
pronunciation sense. The one in California is the /,guAd@'lupeI/ while
the one in Texas, according to MWCD11, is the /'guAd@,lup/.
|
What Evan didn't mention is that the Texans didn't get the concept
directly from the Arabs. (This was before petroleum chumminess.) The
Guadalupe Mountains and the medieval town of Guadalupe were in Spain.
It's harder to find a record of a Guadalupe River there, but this page
mentions one, supposedly the site of a visit from the Virgin Mary:
http://www.spainexchange.com/travel_spain/guadalupe.php
They happen to think the origin of the name was not "wolf," though, but
"hidden."
Getty has as the ancient names of the Spanish town of Guadalupe:
Aquaelupae
Lupiae aquae
Lupi amnis
Mexico *also* has a town of Guadalupe Hidalgo, where the Virgin Mary
*also* appeared to a peasant there (complete transcripts of their
conversation are available) and left a picture of her face on a cloak,
in Mexico's early colonial days. ("Hidalgo" was a much later
revolutionary hero.)
Brewer's _Names_ says the chain went this way:
Spanish river, from Arabic "wadi" and "Lupus," the former (Latin)
name of the river, meaning "wolf"
Spanish mountains
Spanish monastery and town
Transferred to many colonial settlements, including Guadalupe
Hidalgo, Mex.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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PDX Blazers
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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Ray Heindl <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<Xns95A3AFB96110Eamfmssb@130.133.1.4>...
| Quote: |
Wouldn't "The River Rio Grande" sound a bit odd, not to mention
redundant?
|
Yes, but on the other hand "The Rio Grande River" is fairly common. |
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dcw
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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In article <10ppeg1rbag4k0e@corp.supernews.com>,
Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> wrote:
| Quote: | David Wood:
I guess the Great Lakes get their names from (or through) French.
Donna Richoux:
It took me a little while to find a site that gave the history of the
names: http://www.great-lakes.net/lakes/ref/huronfact.html and links.
...
So only one of five (Lake Superior) comes directly from French.
I think David is right.
|
Thanks for the details. George R. Stewart, _A Concise Dictionary of
American Place-Names_, says Erie and Huron come through French, so
that's at least three out of five -- not too bad for a guess.
David |
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Linz
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Cycles [was Re: 'River X' or 'X River'?] |
|
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"Laura F Spira" <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:419D2ABA.5080804@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk...
| Quote: | I think I'd been reading aue for about two years before I became
really conscious of the cyclical nature of most topics but I think
it's probably random. Someone with time on their hands might do a
proper analysis.
Another interesting thing is how the same topics sometimes crop up
in different groups at the same time, without crossposting, even
though there appears to be no commonality in posters or any
external event that might have prompted the discussion.
|
Usenet. There are 200 people and 100 subjects, it's no wonder we keep
cropping up in different groups having the same conversations over and
over again!
[I have just been approached by someone in Livejournal who wondered
which of three newsgroups she might have met me in. All three of them,
at some time or another!] |
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John Seeliger
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
|
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"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gnhuoq.135b7z61i5mwkgN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: | Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> writes:
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
R H Draney writes:
(Isn't there one in Saudi Arabia with the English name "The Wadi
River"?)...r
There's one in Texas called the Guadalupe River, which apparently
comes from mixed Arabic and Spanish "Wadi al-Lupe" (Wolf River) or
perhaps Arabic "Wadi al-Lubb", which would be something like "River
of the Core/Kernel/Essence".
Isn't the one flowing through San Jose also a "Guadalupe River"?
"Also" in an orthographic sense, but not, I believe, in a
pronunciation sense. The one in California is the /,guAd@'lupeI/ while
the one in Texas, according to MWCD11, is the /'guAd@,lup/.
What Evan didn't mention is that the Texans didn't get the concept
directly from the Arabs. (This was before petroleum chumminess.) The
Guadalupe Mountains and the medieval town of Guadalupe were in Spain.
It's harder to find a record of a Guadalupe River there, but this page
mentions one, supposedly the site of a visit from the Virgin Mary:
http://www.spainexchange.com/travel_spain/guadalupe.php
|
Did you see this one http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/heritage.htm?
"ROYAL MONASTERY OF SANTA MARĶA DE GUADALUPE The origin of the monastery
date back to the 13C when the cowhand Gil Cordero found a Romanesque statue
of the Virgin. The Virgin was named after the nearby Guadalupe river, and a
little hermitage was built on the site of Cordero's discovery."
It goes on to say: "With its royal patronage, Guadalupe's influence grew
quickly, and with the discovery of America, the Virgin and the Monastery
grew even more important: Columbus named one of the first Indians he
discovered Guadalupe and he insisted that the first Indians to be converted
to Christianity be baptized at the monastery. The Virgin was soon
established as an inspirational figure for the entire Hispanic world."
| Quote: |
They happen to think the origin of the name was not "wolf," though, but
"hidden."
Getty has as the ancient names of the Spanish town of Guadalupe:
Aquaelupae
Lupiae aquae
Lupi amnis
Mexico *also* has a town of Guadalupe Hidalgo, where the Virgin Mary
*also* appeared to a peasant there (complete transcripts of their
conversation are available) and left a picture of her face on a cloak,
in Mexico's early colonial days. ("Hidalgo" was a much later
revolutionary hero.)
|
Yep. Supposedly, she appeared to Juan Diego
http://zedilloworld.presidencia.gob.mx/PAGES/culture/note_12dec.html:
"On December 12th, 1531, the Virgin of Guadalupe is said to have appeared to
Juan Diego on Tepeyac Hill, bridging two worlds, that of the Aztec who saw
her and that of the Spanish conquerors who now ruled his land. She has since
become the patron and symbol of Mexico, a country born of this fusion of
cultures."
but for the one in California
http://www.scu.edu/envs/ulistac/history/missionary.html says:
"The Spanish explorer Juan Bautista de Anza and his team arrived at [Half
Moon Bay]. They named the adjacent Guadalupe River (Rio de Nuestra Senora
De Guadalupe) after the patron saint of their expedition, the Virgin of
Guadalupe"
The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo ended the Mexican-American War, which was
fought in part because of the Rio Grande. When Texas declared independence
in 1836, Mexico only reconized the Texan sovereignty up to the Rio Nueces,
not the Rio Grande and the treaty reqired the cessation of most of the
present-day southwest US.
And Guadalupe Peak (8,749 feet ft.) in the Guadalupe Mountains is the
highest point in Texas, near the Delaware River, which as you know
Washington crossed on Christmas night.
Why did Washington cross the Delaware? To get the chicken to the other
side. And the wolf (lupus) and the bag of grain (Only one can fit in the
boat at a time.) Except, it wasn't really a wolf. More of a coyote
http://www.guadalupe.mountains.national-park.com/info.htm. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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John Seeliger filted:
| Quote: |
Big River River sounds odd too. On one episode of "Get Smart", Max and the
Chief are called up to service in the Navy and Max is an officer and the
Chief, an enlisted man, and Max is explaining to the men that they would be
working on a "PD detail" which is "a paint detail detail".
|
The "Get Smart" people were fond of this sort of thing...I remember one episode
where Max suggested that the best way to knock out the enemy's anti-antimissile
missile was with their own anti-anti-antimissile missile missile....r |
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John Seeliger
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
|
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"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cnle5401o83@drn.newsguy.com...
| Quote: | John Seeliger filted:
Big River River sounds odd too. On one episode of "Get Smart", Max and
the
Chief are called up to service in the Navy and Max is an officer and the
Chief, an enlisted man, and Max is explaining to the men that they would
be
working on a "PD detail" which is "a paint detail detail".
The "Get Smart" people were fond of this sort of thing...I remember one
episode
where Max suggested that the best way to knock out the enemy's
anti-antimissile
missile was with their own anti-anti-antimissile missile missile....r
|
"Chief you're stammering".[1]
I think you got one extra missile in there. My recollection was
"Anti-anti-anti-missile missile". First you have a missile. Then you have
an anti-missile missile, which is a missile that takes out[2] other
missiles.
Then you have a missile that takes out the anti-missile missile called an
anti-anti-missile missile. I suppose they could have called it an
anti-anti-missile missile missile, because it is a missile that takes out
the anti-missile missile, but they implicitly chose the former.
The last missile is missile that takes out the anti-anti-missile missile,
and is thus called an anti-anti-anti-missile missile (AAAMM).
Several sites seems to agree:
Googling "get smart" "anti-anti-anti-missile missile missile" gives no hits
but googling "get smart" "anti-anti-anti-missile missile" gives two. Also,
"get smart" aaammm gives none, but "get smart" aaamm gives four.
BTW, on one episode, I think the same one Max and the Chief were on the
ship, there was mention of the Spanish Secret Service Special Security
Service (SSSSSS), IIRC. I think Max saw the photo in the newspaper of a
phony Spanish agent (recognized as phony because he is signing papers with
the wrong hand) and they get sent to the brig after Max throws the captains
hat into the water and then accidently inflate a life raft.
http://www.wouldyoubelieve.com/episodes.html:
"Temporarily Out of CONTROL
Airdate: Saturday, December 14, 1968, 8:00 PM
Writers: Arne Sultan, Leonard Stern, Alan Burns, and Chris Hayward
Director: James Komack
Carl's Rating: ***
Max and 99 are preparing to leave on their honeymoon, a two week Carribean
cruise, when he gets a telegram calling him to active duty in the Navy. He
rushes to the office to get the Chief to intercede, but the Chief has been
called up too. Even worse, in the Navy, Max is the Chief's superior officer.
While painting a battleship, they realize that they must get back to the
office to prevent a KAOS spy from getting the Obermeyer Papers. They're
unable to convince the captain that they're spies and Max and the Chief are
sent to the brig. Max, a confined space, and an inflatable raft make for
trouble in this episode."
Max had initially thrown one sailor's cap into the water because the sailor
refused to let them see the captain and when the captain refused to let them
have a helicopter, Max threw his ap into the water. While in the brig, the
Chief explains to Max that throwing the first sailor's cap into the water
would get them to see the captain, but throwing the captain's cap into the
water wasn't going to get them a helicopter and Max replies with something
like "Well, we know that now."
BTW, the inflating raft bit also worked when they were fleeing the army of a
Latin American dictator, arguing over which of the four (Max, 99, Don Carlos
and Carlos's daughter) would be left behind, since the escape ballon would
only hold three, and when they start to inflate it, it turns out to be a
raft instead of a balloon.
Max: Well, the way I see it, there's only one thing that will save us now.
99: What?
Max: A river
The inflating raft also worked well for "The Dick Van Dyke Show".
[1]- This was Max's actually reply to AAAMM.
[2]- When I say "takes out", I don't mean on a date. |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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John Seeliger filted:
| Quote: |
"R H Draney" <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:cnle5401o83@drn.newsguy.com...
The "Get Smart" people were fond of this sort of thing...I remember one
episode
where Max suggested that the best way to knock out the enemy's
anti-antimissile
missile was with their own anti-anti-antimissile missile missile....r
"Chief you're stammering".[1]
I think you got one extra missile in there. My recollection was
"Anti-anti-anti-missile missile". First you have a missile. Then you have
an anti-missile missile, which is a missile that takes out[2] other
missiles.
|
Missed it by *that* much....r |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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John Seeliger <jseelige@hotpop.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gnhuoq.135b7z61i5mwkgN%trio@euronet.nl...
|
[snip various on "Guadalupe"]
| Quote: | What Evan didn't mention is that the Texans didn't get the concept
directly from the Arabs. (This was before petroleum chumminess.) The
Guadalupe Mountains and the medieval town of Guadalupe were in Spain.
It's harder to find a record of a Guadalupe River there, but this page
mentions one, supposedly the site of a visit from the Virgin Mary:
http://www.spainexchange.com/travel_spain/guadalupe.php
Did you see this one http://www.ctv.es/USERS/acabiedes/heritage.htm?
"ROYAL MONASTERY OF SANTA MARĶA DE GUADALUPE The origin of the monastery
date back to the 13C when the cowhand Gil Cordero found a Romanesque statue
of the Virgin. The Virgin was named after the nearby Guadalupe river, and a
little hermitage was built on the site of Cordero's discovery."
|
A "cowhand" named "Gil Cordero" in medieval Spain? Boggling. Gil turns
up on a couple of other pages (shepherd, cowherd), but nothing very
authoritative and I wonder if he's a bit of folkloric confusion. What
the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is fairly thorough about miracles and
saints and the like, says about Guadalupe in Spain is:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15770a.htm
In the centre of a chain of mountains covered with
oaks and chestnuts which separate Estramadura from
Castile, on a peak less sharp than its neighbours,
rises the monastery of Guadalupe. Belonging to the
Order of Hieronymites this monastery was for a long
time the centre of a much frequented pilgrimage,
whither people came to venerate a miraculous image
of the Blessed Virgin Mary which St. Leander,
Archbishop of Seville, had brought from Rome.
Crikey, St. Leander of Seville was supposed to be born around 534 and
died around 600. This is getting to be as vague and old as St. Nicholas,
Sinterklaas and Santa Claus. At least this sounds specific: under
"Hieronymites", the monastic order, the Cath.Enc. says:
In 1389 they received the monastery of Our Lady of Guadalupe, in
Estramadura, in which is preserved the image of the Blessed Virgin
most venerated throughout Spain.
So, anyway, although the Mexican Mary/Guadalupe was billed as a vision
who talked with a local peasant and worked some miracles, the earlier
Spanish Mary/Guadalupe was a painting (or statue) thought to be brought
from ancient Rome (although folklore also says it was discovered by a
local cowherd). By "miraculous" I would expect the Cath.Enc. means that
prayers and requests directed toward the painting were (sometimes)
granted.
| Quote: | It goes on to say: "With its royal patronage, Guadalupe's influence grew
quickly, and with the discovery of America, the Virgin and the Monastery
grew even more important: Columbus named one of the first Indians he
discovered Guadalupe
|
Well, it may have become a very common name by then anyway. I have no
way to judge that.
| Quote: | and he insisted that the first Indians to be converted
to Christianity be baptized at the monastery.
|
That is odd -- the first converted *and* hauled back to Spain, I
suppose.
| Quote: | The Virgin was soon
established as an inspirational figure for the entire Hispanic world."
[snip some other stuff]
Mexico *also* has a town of Guadalupe Hidalgo, where the Virgin Mary
*also* appeared to a peasant there (complete transcripts of their
conversation are available) and left a picture of her face on a cloak,
in Mexico's early colonial days.
|
The Mexican shrine with that picture dates to 1531, apparently.
[snip more good stuff]
| Quote: |
The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo ended the Mexican-American War,
|
That must be why I'd heard of "Guadalupe-Hidalgo" somewhere.
[snip]
Not a chicken, a goose. Go chase it, it's getting away.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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John Seeliger
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:04 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
|
|
"PDX Blazers" <pdx_blazers@sacbeemail.com> wrote in message
news:a5b8ff4f.0411190529.738345aa@posting.google.com...
| Quote: | Ray Heindl <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:<Xns95A3AFB96110Eamfmssb@130.133.1.4>...
Wouldn't "The River Rio Grande" sound a bit odd, not to mention
redundant?
Yes, but on the other hand "The Rio Grande River" is fairly common.
|
Big River River sounds odd too. On one episode of "Get Smart", Max and the
Chief are called up to service in the Navy and Max is an officer and the
Chief, an enlisted man, and Max is explaining to the men that they would be
working on a "PD detail" which is "a paint detail detail". |
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| |
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