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dcw
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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In article <cngirs$v6n$1@news.netins.net>,
Jess Askin <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote:
| Quote: | AmE seems to be about evenly divided between Lake X and X Lake, with little
rhyme or reason. The Great Lakes are all Lake X, but it doesn't necessarily
follow that other large lakes are -- it's Great Salt Lake, for example. And
it's not regional -- California has Lake Tahoe and Mono Lake, both largeish.
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I guess the Great Lakes get their names from (or through) French.
David
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Ross Howard
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:39:10 -0000, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com>
wrought:
| Quote: | raymond o'hara typed thus:
"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote in message
news:cngirs$v6n$1@news.netins.net...
Oh, maybe there is one rule: if X is an adjective, it comes first -- Round
Lake, Long Lake, Blue Lake, etc.
Lake Winnepausaukee, Lake George, Lake of the Woods, Lake Champlain.
Squam Lake, Webster Lake,
Gosh. I once waterskied on Lake Winnipesaukee. 1976, IIRC. I fell
in a lot.
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Ah, so it was Lake Winnepesoakee, then.
--
Ross Howard |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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Ross Howard typed thus:
| Quote: | On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:39:10 -0000, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com
wrought:
raymond o'hara typed thus:
"Jess Askin" <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote in message
news:cngirs$v6n$1@news.netins.net...
Oh, maybe there is one rule: if X is an adjective, it comes first -- Round
Lake, Long Lake, Blue Lake, etc.
Lake Winnepausaukee, Lake George, Lake of the Woods, Lake Champlain.
Squam Lake, Webster Lake,
Gosh. I once waterskied on Lake Winnipesaukee. 1976, IIRC. I fell
in a lot.
Ah, so it was Lake Winnepesoakee, then.
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Probably still is.
--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article.
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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dcw <D.C.Wood@ukc.ac.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <cngirs$v6n$1@news.netins.net>,
Jess Askin <nospam@dontbother.net> wrote:
AmE seems to be about evenly divided between Lake X and X Lake, with little
rhyme or reason. The Great Lakes are all Lake X, but it doesn't necessarily
follow that other large lakes are -- it's Great Salt Lake, for example. And
it's not regional -- California has Lake Tahoe and Mono Lake, both largeish.
I guess the Great Lakes get their names from (or through) French.
|
It took me a little while to find a site that gave the history of the
names: http://www.great-lakes.net/lakes/ref/huronfact.html and links.
Lake Superior: from "le lac superieur," the upper lake (compared to
Huron)
Lake Erie: French name, "Lac du Chat," lake of the cat ("cat" or panther
was the translation of the Indian word "Erie")
Lake Huron: "La Mer Douce" (the sweet (fresh-water) sea)
Lake Michigan: "Grand Lac," "Lac St. Joseph," "Lac Dauphin," "Lac de
Puans," "Lac des Illinois."
Lake Ontario: "Lac de St. Louis." In 1660, Jesuit historian Francis
Creuxius called it Lacus Ontarius, "beautiful lake," from the Iroquois
word "Ontario." (Brewer's _Names_ makes that "oniatariio".]
So only one of five (Lake Superior) comes directly from French.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Lake Huron: the French called it |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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David Wood:
| Quote: | I guess the Great Lakes get their names from (or through) French.
|
Donna Richoux:
I think David is right.
In the "Historical Atlas of Canada" by Derek Hayes (2002, Dundas &
McIntyre / University of Washington Press, ISBN 0-295-98277-2) there
are reproduced several maps showing some or all the Great Lakes.
In particular there is a map in French showing the "Partie Occidentale
du Canada ou de la Nouvelle France" (western part of Canada or New
France) as engraved by Vincenzo Coronelli and published in 1688.
Incidentally, the map shows scales in five units. It appears that
240 Italian or non-geometric miles = 100 French common leagues =
72 Spanish common leagues = 192 English common miles = 80 leagues
of one road hour ("Lieues d'une Heure de Chemin", with a dieresis
on the first U).
The five lakes are named as follows:
* LAC DE TRACY, ou SUPERIEUR, et LAC DE CONDE'.
* LAC DES ILINOIS ou MICHIGAMI ou LAC DAUPHIN.
* LAC DES HURONS, et KAREGNONDI ou ALGONKINS MICHIGANGE, ou LAC D'ORLEANS.
* LAC ERIE' ou TEIOCHARONTIONG et LAC DE CONTY et du CHAT
* LAC FRONTENAC, ou ONTARIO, et SKANIADORIO. ou S.LOUIS
I reproduce the commas and periods, as well as the seemingly random
use of "and" (et) and "or" (ou) to join alternative names, as they
appear on the map (unless I miscopied). Accents on capital letters,
where used, are shown after the letter, so E' is more or less the way
it actually appears on the map.
Anyway, we see here, in French, something resembling all five names
as used today, in among the various alternatives.
Also shown is a map drawn in 1678 by Jean-Baptiste-Louis Franquelin,
which gives one name in French each for the five lakes, and four of
them are the modern names. The duplicated PE is in the original.
* LAC SVPEPERIVR.
* LAC DES ILINOIS.
* LAC HVRON.
* LAC ERIE'
* LAC ONTARIO.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "... pure English is de rigueur"
msb@vex.net -- Guardian Weekly
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Evan Kirshenbaum
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:00 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> writes:
| Quote: | (Isn't there one in Saudi Arabia with the English name "The Wadi
River"?)...r
|
There's one in Texas called the Guadalupe River, which apparently
comes from mixed Arabic and Spanish "Wadi al-Lupe" (Wolf River) or
perhaps Arabic "Wadi al-Lubb", which would be something like "River of
the Core/Kernel/Essence".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There are just two rules of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |governance in a free society: Mind
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |your own business. Keep your hands
|to yourself.
kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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Don Brinn
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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halcombe@subdimension.com (halcombe) wrote in message news:<d7fa3848.0411161024.3900aee1@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers according to
the formula ?River X' ? as: ?the River Thames', ?the River Avon', etc.
In the US, the name is ?X River' ? as: ?the Colorado River', the
?Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?) follow the
domestic rule?
|
In Canada it seems to be similar to the situation in the US. From my
own experience, I'd say rivers are almost exclusively X River:
St. Lawrence River
MacKenzie River
Niagara River
Ottawa River
And even (to the horror of the English?), in Ontario, the city of
London on the banks of the "Thames River".
For lakes, both Lake X and X Lake are known, but I think Lake X is
more common:
Lake Ontario, Erie, Huron, Michigan, and Superior
Lake Louise
Lake Simcoe
Lake Winnipeg
Lake Manitoba
Lake Lisgar
Of course, there some X Lakes:
Great Slave Lake
Great Bear Lake
Sproat Lake
(The infamous) Meech Lake
I think the names Great Slave Lake, Great Bear Lake, and also Great
Salt Lake in Utah are special cases. |
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raymond o'hara
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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"Mark Brader" <msb@vex.net> wrote in message
news:10ppeg1rbag4k0e@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | David Wood:
I guess the Great Lakes get their names from (or through) French.
Donna Richoux:
It took me a little while to find a site that gave the history of the
names: http://www.great-lakes.net/lakes/ref/huronfact.html and links.
...
So only one of five (Lake Superior) comes directly from French.
I think David is right.
In the "Historical Atlas of Canada" by Derek Hayes (2002, Dundas &
McIntyre / University of Washington Press, ISBN 0-295-98277-2) there
are reproduced several maps showing some or all the Great Lakes.
In particular there is a map in French showing the "Partie Occidentale
du Canada ou de la Nouvelle France" (western part of Canada or New
France) as engraved by Vincenzo Coronelli and published in 1688.
Incidentally, the map shows scales in five units. It appears that
240 Italian or non-geometric miles = 100 French common leagues =
72 Spanish common leagues = 192 English common miles = 80 leagues
of one road hour ("Lieues d'une Heure de Chemin", with a dieresis
on the first U).
The five lakes are named as follows:
* LAC DE TRACY, ou SUPERIEUR, et LAC DE CONDE'.
* LAC DES ILINOIS ou MICHIGAMI ou LAC DAUPHIN.
* LAC DES HURONS, et KAREGNONDI ou ALGONKINS MICHIGANGE, ou LAC D'ORLEANS.
* LAC ERIE' ou TEIOCHARONTIONG et LAC DE CONTY et du CHAT
* LAC FRONTENAC, ou ONTARIO, et SKANIADORIO. ou S.LOUIS
I reproduce the commas and periods, as well as the seemingly random
use of "and" (et) and "or" (ou) to join alternative names, as they
appear on the map (unless I miscopied). Accents on capital letters,
where used, are shown after the letter, so E' is more or less the way
it actually appears on the map.
Anyway, we see here, in French, something resembling all five names
as used today, in among the various alternatives.
Also shown is a map drawn in 1678 by Jean-Baptiste-Louis Franquelin,
which gives one name in French each for the five lakes, and four of
them are the modern names. The duplicated PE is in the original.
* LAC SVPEPERIVR.
* LAC DES ILINOIS.
* LAC HVRON.
* LAC ERIE'
* LAC ONTARIO.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "... pure English is de rigueur"
msb@vex.net -- Guardian Weekly
My text in this article is in the public domain.
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Lake George was Lac du Saint Sacrement before the battle there , William
Johnson renamed it in honor of his victory there. |
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John Varela
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 01:06:48 UTC, R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> wrote:
| Quote: | please substitute "The Zambezi"
|
Which reminds me: it was an Englishman who wrote of "the great, grey-green,
greasy Limpopo River all set about with fever trees." Note not "The River
Limpopo" but the "Limpopo River".
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. |
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John Varela
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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On Thu, 18 Nov 2004 09:43:35 UTC, D.C.Wood@ukc.ac.uk (dcw) wrote:
| Quote: | I guess the Great Lakes get their names from (or through) French.
|
As does Lake Pontchartrain. Which is actually a bay.
--
John Varela
(Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.)
I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. |
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Graeme Thomas
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Cycles [was Re: 'River X' or 'X River'?] |
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In article <1gnh3yt.do5lzs14js0m6N%trio@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> writes
| Quote: | Laura F Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
Must be nearly time for Torpenhow again...
Someone just did, no joke. Yesterday, I think. They didn't say
"Torpenhow" but something about "that Welsh Hill Hill Hill."
|
Has it moved to Wales? I must keep track ...
--
Graeme Thomas |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
| Quote: | R H Draney writes:
(Isn't there one in Saudi Arabia with the English name "The Wadi
River"?)...r
There's one in Texas called the Guadalupe River, which apparently
comes from mixed Arabic and Spanish "Wadi al-Lupe" (Wolf River) or
perhaps Arabic "Wadi al-Lubb", which would be something like "River of
the Core/Kernel/Essence".
|
Isn't the one flowing through San Jose also a "Guadalupe River"? In English
usage, as always. My Rand McNally map certainly says so.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am
Post subject: Re: Cycles [was Re: 'River X' or 'X River'?] |
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Laura F Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle wrote:
OT: This isn't in the slightest intended as a criticism: it just
interests me. Is there any kind of formula which might predict how
often a topic will be repeated in a given newsgroup? (We talked about
the "Lake X/X Lake" thing about two months ago, I think.) Is it
random? Does it depend on the nature of the group? Etc? I quite like
reinforcement and the odd turns these things often take, so I repeat
that this isn't a complaint.
I think I'd been reading aue for about two years before I became really
conscious of the cyclical nature of most topics but I think it's
probably random. Someone with time on their hands might do a proper
analysis.
Another interesting thing is how the same topics sometimes crop up in
different groups at the same time, without crossposting, even though
there appears to be no commonality in posters or any external event that
might have prompted the discussion.
Must be nearly time for Torpenhow again...
|
Someone just did, no joke. Yesterday, I think. They didn't say
"Torpenhow" but something about "that Welsh Hill Hill Hill."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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R H Draney wrote:
| Quote: | Mark Barratt filted:
halcombe wrote:
In Britain, one names (generally? universally?) rivers
according to the formula ‘River X' – as: ‘the River Thames',
‘the River Avon', etc.
I think there are exceptions, but none springs to mind.
In the US, the name is ‘X River' – as: ‘the Colorado River',
the
‘Connecticut River'.
Why? And do third country rivers (generally? universally?)
follow the domestic rule?
Which is the domestic rule?
I think it depends upon the speaker, not the location of the
river. I (a Brit) say 'The River Amazon', 'The River Nile', 'The
River Danube', etc. I suspect that an American would go for the
American word order, right?
For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this
American would
omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the case for any river
the
listener is likely to recognize as such: "The Yenisey", "The Congo",
"The
Brahmaputra", "The Orinoco"
|
You must know different listeners than I do. I suspect with no data
that at most half of my students would recognize "the Congo" as a river
and maybe 5 percent would recognize your other three.
A friend of mine tutored a seventh-grader, a native speaker of English,
who didn't know where the Rio Grande is--though it flows within a mile
of the student's house.
--
Jerry Friedman |
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R H Draney
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am
Post subject: Re: 'River X' or 'X River'? |
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com filted:
| Quote: |
R H Draney wrote:
For all the rivers mentioned above (except the Connecticut), this
American would
omit the word "River" altogether...seems to be the case for any river
the
listener is likely to recognize as such: "The Yenisey", "The Congo",
"The
Brahmaputra", "The Orinoco"
You must know different listeners than I do. I suspect with no data
that at most half of my students would recognize "the Congo" as a river
and maybe 5 percent would recognize your other three.
|
The Congo may have been a bad choice there; I was trying to hit several
continents and overlooked the fact that the name, with definite article, used to
refer to an entire country...please substitute "The Zambezi"....
I shan't apologize for the other three...we used to play Hangman with geographic
names back in high school, and those would have been considered unremarkable
entries...I still think that anyone who does recognize them would immediately
recognize the genus....
| Quote: | A friend of mine tutored a seventh-grader, a native speaker of English,
who didn't know where the Rio Grande is--though it flows within a mile
of the student's house.
|
I suppose being *too* close takes a river off the radar in another way...I don't
often refer to "The Salt" these days, nor did I to "The Gila" when I lived a
couple hundred miles upstream....r |
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