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Sean O'Leathlobhair
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Use "on" or "in"? |
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"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<419A7B55.6865@worldnet.att.net>...
| Quote: | LEE Sau Dan wrote:
"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> writes:
Peter> Certainly not. You do not live within or in or on top of
Peter> the street;
How about those homeless people who sleep alongside a street?
They sleep on the sidewalk.
Peter> you live in a house built on a lot alongside a street.
It is possible to build things below ground. What would you say if
you live in such structures? (There are homeless people who find
shelter inside "pedestrian tunnels" ("subway" is in UK English). Do
they live below a street?)
For a while, the authorities were very strict about not sleeping in
subway stations, but they may have relented more recently. Though there
are now additional "security" problems.
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"Subway" has a different non-overlapping meaning here. In the UK,
subways do not contain trains. Tunnels for underground trains are
called subways. "Subway" is only used for a pedestrian only tunnel,
usually under a road. What you call the "Subway", we would usually
call the "Underground" or, especially in London, the "Tube".
Sometimes "Metro" is used, particularly for systems on the mainland of
Europe e.g. Paris and Barcelona.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
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Sean O'Leathlobhair
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Use "on" or "in"? |
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LEE Sau Dan <danlee@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message news:<m3hdnpkbqp.fsf@mika.informatik.uni-freiburg.de>...
| Quote: | "Sean" == Sean O'Leathlobhair <jwlawler@yahoo.com> writes:
Sean> Consider houses and streets. In the UK we say things such
Sean> as "I live in Main St" but I believe that "I live on Main
Sean> St" is more common in the US. Both of us could use logic to
Sean> defend our usage. Us Brits would point out that we live
Sean> with the limits of the street, if you pointed to the house
Sean> on a map, it would be within the street. The Americans
Sean> could say that the house is on top of the street, they don't
Sean> live in a basement. We could probably agree that "under"
Sean> and "over" would not be appropriate for most houses. A
Sean> restricted choice with the final choice arbitrary.
Could it be due to slightly different semantics? E.g. US "street"
refers to the part of the ground where people and vehicle pass and no
buildings are built on. So, they use "on", like "on the floor". But
UK "street" includes not only that, but also the buildings, shops,
everything. So, they use "in", like "in the forest". Could it be
like that?
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It could be. That is a point that I tried to make in another
response. I regard the street as being not just the surface that the
cars use but also the buildings alongside.
| Quote: | And what do you understand by the word "door"? The opening only? The
piece of wood/metal that closes the opening? An opening TOGETHER with
a piece of wood/metal that can close it? Or what?
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This seems to vary by context. For example, if I asked for a door in
a hardware shop, I would expect to be given a large rectangle of wood
or similar material. But if I say, "please go through the door", I
don't expect you to break your way through the wood.
| Quote: | Sean> Vehicles are also odd. I am not sure of US usage but here
Sean> is British usage. I ride IN a car and ON a bike which can
Sean> be defended logically. But I ride ON buses and trains and
Sean> not IN them. For some odd reason, we prefer to ride ON
Sean> large public transport vehicles.
These usages are quite idiomatic, i.e. can't be easily understood with
logic. Maybe, they have started off from different perspectives. "On
a bus" may have come from the perspectives of "on the floor", and "in
a car" from the analogy with "in a house (or cage?  )".
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I heard an explanation which involved older vehicles but I cannot
remember the details. If you consider older open vehicles, e.g.
carts, the in / on distinction is less clear. Oddly I still ride _in_
an open topped car but _on_ a train which almost always has a roof.
Note that we have some open topped double decker buses here for
tourist use. If you are upstairs then on may make more sense.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair |
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Sean O'Leathlobhair
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Use "on" or "in"? |
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"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<419A00E2.4FAF@worldnet.att.net>...
| Quote: | Sean O'Leathlobhair wrote:
Sometimes the choice of preposition is governed by logic, in some
cases a restricted range are logical, and in some cases it is
arbitrary.
Consider houses and streets. In the UK we say things such as "I live
in Main St"
I thought you call it High St?
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High St is much more common but we do have a few Main St. I used Main
in both examples to avoid an additional irrelevant variation.
| Quote: | but I believe that "I live on Main St" is more common in
St.
the US. Both of us could use logic to defend our usage. Us Brits
would point out that we live with the limits of the street, if you
pointed to the house on a map, it would be within the street. The
Certainly not. You do not live within or in or on top of the street; you
live in a house built on a lot alongside a street.
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When I go home, I turn into High St and then out of High St into My
Street but I don't turn out of my street since I live there. So, I
consider myself to be in My St since I have gone in but not out. I am
not saying that this proves that "in" is _the_ only sensible
preposition to use but I think that it does prove that is _a_ sensible
preposition.
I guess that there is a problem about the boundaries of the street.
Does it include only the tarmac that the cars drive on? Does it
include the pavements (sidewalks)? Does it include the houses built
alongside? I would tend to believe that all of these things are part
of the street and hence the houses are in the street.
| Quote: | Americans could say that the house is on top of the street, they don't
No we could not; vehicles, perhaps, are on top of a street. A house can
be on top of a hill.
live in a basement. We could probably agree that "under" and "over"
would not be appropriate for most houses. A restricted choice with
the final choice arbitrary.
"Al Capone's vault" was built out from the basement of the hotel under
the sidewalk ("pavement"), perhaps as far out as under the street.
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I never said that there were no houses for which other prepositions
would not be sensible but I think that in both of our countries, the
majority of our houses are similar.
| Quote: | Vehicles are also odd. I am not sure of US usage but here is British
usage. I ride IN a car and ON a bike which can be defended logically.
But I ride ON buses and trains and not IN them. For some odd reason,
we prefer to ride ON large public transport vehicles.
No difference. But we ride _in_ the first car ("carriage").
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Yes, I may get _on_ the train / plane and ride _in_ first class
(except that it is not worth the extra).
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Use "on" or "in"? |
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Sean O'Leathlobhair wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | Note that we have some open topped double decker buses here for
tourist use. If you are upstairs then on may make more sense.
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Do people still say "inside" for the downstairs of a double-decker,
and "on top" for the upstairs? ("Inside" survives/d from the days
when the uncovered upper alternative was called "outside", as in
horse-drawn coaches.)
Mike. |
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Chris Malcolm
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Use "on" or "in"? |
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In alt.usage.english Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@removethisyahoo.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | Sean O'Leathlobhair wrote:
[...]
Note that we have some open topped double decker buses here for
tourist use. If you are upstairs then on may make more sense.
Do people still say "inside" for the downstairs of a double-decker,
and "on top" for the upstairs? ("Inside" survives/d from the days
when the uncovered upper alternative was called "outside", as in
horse-drawn coaches.)
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And as they still do in the case of double deckers with open tops.
--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] |
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