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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:00 pm
Post subject: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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After perusing several dictionaries, I haven't yet realized whether "aught"
is still used in the phrase "for aught I know".
Likewise, I don't know yet if "oftener", which word, I must say, I've never
read in a modern text, can ever be used nowadays.
Bye, FB
--
Io ho deciso di rifiutarmi di vederlo: Ettore con la faccia di Eric Banana
mi fa venire i conati.
(commento sul film "Troy" apparso su it.fan.scrittori.tolkien)
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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F. Balducci:
| Quote: | After perusing several dictionaries, I haven't yet realized ...
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Adrian Bailey:
| Quote: | not "realized"; "discovered" or "found out"
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Bill Bonde:
| Quote: | 'Realized' is fine if the dictionary plainly explains the word and
phrase.
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No, it isn't. "Realizing" involves a discovery *about your own
knowledge* -- you discover that you were wrong, either as to a fact,
or as to whether or not you knew a fact.
If you're saying "I haven't yet realized", this implies at the same
time that you know you have made a mistake (because you are going to
realize it in the future), and also that you don't know you have made
a mistake (because you haven't realized it yet). These are words you
would only say in some unusual context, not when talking about a
fact you want to learn.
F. might mean "I've realized that I don't know" -- this says that F.
didn't think at first about the fact that the dictionaries didn't
answer the question of current usage, and then noticed that they hadn't.
Or as Adrian said, F. might just mean "I haven't found out".
(This is not the only meaning of "realize", of course, but I'm talking
about the usual meaning; nothing else fits.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "We are full of digital chain letters and
msb@vex.net | warnings about marmalade." --Matt Ridley
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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Adrian Bailey
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1azizj1firnuz$.zb7f012jf0b5.dlg@40tude.net...
| Quote: | After perusing several dictionaries, I haven't yet realized
|
not "realized"; "discovered" or "found out"
| Quote: | whether "aught"
is still used in the phrase "for aught I know".
|
It is. Next question: is the phrase "for aught I know" still used?
| Quote: | Likewise, I don't know yet if "oftener", which word, I must say, I've
never
read in a modern text, can ever be used nowadays.
|
I should coco.
Adrian
--
Song of the month, dedicated to the expats and Charles:
http://tinyurl.com/57zsw from
http://www.theacf.com/immaterial/
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Bill Bonde ( ``And the La
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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Adrian Bailey wrote:
| Quote: |
"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1azizj1firnuz$.zb7f012jf0b5.dlg@40tude.net...
After perusing several dictionaries, I haven't yet realized
not "realized"; "discovered" or "found out"
'Realized' is fine if the dictionary plainly explains the word and |
phrase.
--
"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata."
+-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous" |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 11:29:32 -0800, Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down
on Broadway'' ) wrote:
| Quote: | Adrian Bailey wrote:
"FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
news:1azizj1firnuz$.zb7f012jf0b5.dlg@40tude.net...
After perusing several dictionaries, I haven't yet realized
not "realized"; "discovered" or "found out"
'Realized' is fine if the dictionary plainly explains the word and
phrase.
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That's what I meant: I've perused several dictionaries, read their
definitions of "aught", but they don't seem to state clearly whether "for
aught I know" is ever used nowadays, and in what register.
Bye, FB
--
"Something to take to the country." (holding out a bunch of flowers)
"Flowers come _from_ the country, Charles."
(Cold Comfort Farm, the film) |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:42:19 GMT, Adrian Bailey wrote:
| Quote: | It is. Next question: is the phrase "for aught I know" still used?
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Indeed. (smiling face)
| Quote: | Likewise, I don't know yet if "oftener", which word, I must say, I've
never
read in a modern text, can ever be used nowadays.
I should coco.
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I don't get it. To me, "coco" only means "cocoanut" or "head" in AmEng.
Bye, FB
--
Locked from the inside. That can only mean one thing, and I don't know what
it is.
(Murder by Death) |
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Mark Brader
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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F. Balducci:
| Quote: | After perusing several dictionaries, I haven't yet realized whether "aught"
is still used in the phrase "for aught I know".
|
Most people would not use this. It would be seen as archaic (or perhaps
dialect) usage.
| Quote: | Likewise, I don't know yet if "oftener", which word, I must say, I've never
read in a modern text, can ever be used nowadays.
|
In very informal speech some people sometimes use inflected forms that
are not normal usage, just for fun, expecting them to be understanded
(that was an example); and that's the only sort of situation where
I'd expect to come across "oftener" today, although a google search
reveals that it has seen some use as a normal word. In fact, the first
several hits in the google search are dictionary entries for the word,
and similar things -- clear evidence that it is now little used.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | The real trouble with this world of ours is... that
msb@vex.net | it is nearly reasonable, but not quite. --Chesterton
My text in this article is in the public domain. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:10:26 -0000, Mark Brader wrote:
| Quote: | No, it isn't. "Realizing" involves a discovery *about your own
knowledge* -- you discover that you were wrong, either as to a fact,
or as to whether or not you knew a fact.
|
I stand corrected.
Bye, FB
--
"Che cos'è un fallo da tergo? E non stiamo parlando della tua vita
privata."
(Intervista della Gialappa's Band a Elisabetta Canalis) |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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"Mark Brader" <msb@vex.net> wrote in message
news:10pi2f69f0d7ed9@corp.supernews.com...
| Quote: | F. Balducci:
After perusing several dictionaries, I haven't yet realized whether
"aught"
is still used in the phrase "for aught I know".
Most people would not use this. It would be seen as archaic (or perhaps
dialect) usage.
Likewise, I don't know yet if "oftener", which word, I must say, I've
never
read in a modern text, can ever be used nowadays.
In very informal speech some people sometimes use inflected forms that
are not normal usage, just for fun, expecting them to be understanded
(that was an example); and that's the only sort of situation where
I'd expect to come across "oftener" today, although a google search
reveals that it has seen some use as a normal word. In fact, the first
several hits in the google search are dictionary entries for the word,
and similar things -- clear evidence that it is now little used.
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"Oftener" is fine with me (UK). But the -er and -est forms are slowly dying
out even in BrE, and rather faster in LeftPondia, I think. Years ago, I
remember, my school pupils regarded as an eccentricity my use of "commoner"
instead of their "more common". "Aught" is probably used only in the
expression "for aught I know", and that only as if it were a quotation or
old saying. The form spelt "owt" is still current in some Br dialects.
Alan Jones |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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FB typed thus:
| Quote: | On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:42:19 GMT, Adrian Bailey wrote:
It is. Next question: is the phrase "for aught I know" still used?
Indeed. (smiling face)
Likewise, I don't know yet if "oftener", which word, I must say, I've
never read in a modern text, can ever be used nowadays.
I should coco.
I don't get it. To me, "coco" only means "cocoanut" or "head" in AmEng.
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It's a fixed phrase of indeterminate origin which means something
like "You cannot possibly be serious", or "Pull the other one, it's
got bells on".
I see that many online references suggest that it's rhyming slang for
"I should say so", said sarcastically, but that seems rather like a
solution looking for a problem. Until I started searching, I would
have capitalised Coco, assuming it to be somebody's name, and hence:
"I should, Coco". It's even given as "I should cocoa" in some, which
just looks silly.
--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article. |
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FB
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:20:32 GMT, Alan Jones wrote:
| Quote: | "Oftener" is fine with me (UK). But the -er and -est forms are slowly dying
out even in BrE, and rather faster in LeftPondia, I think.
|
Why Adrian's "I should coco", then? He lives in RightPondia, doesn't he?
Anyhow, do you think I could use it or would it sound silly or very
old-fashioned?
| Quote: | Years ago, I remember, my school pupils regarded as an eccentricity my use of "commoner"
instead of their "more common".
|
I use "commoner" myself. Shouldn't I? I'm aware "more common" is commoner,
but I didn't know "commoner" was regarded as an eccentricity.
Bye, FB
--
"Come, dear, we have already missed five, if not six, trains. To miss any
more might expose us to comment on the platform."
("The Importance of Being Earnest", Oscar Wilde) |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | FB typed thus:
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:42:19 GMT, Adrian Bailey wrote:
It is. Next question: is the phrase "for aught I know" still
used?
Indeed. (smiling face)
Likewise, I don't know yet if "oftener", which word, I must say,
I've never read in a modern text, can ever be used nowadays.
I should coco.
I don't get it. To me, "coco" only means "cocoanut" or "head" in
AmEng.
It's a fixed phrase of indeterminate origin which means something
like "You cannot possibly be serious", or "Pull the other one, it's
got bells on".
I see that many online references suggest that it's rhyming slang
for
"I should say so", said sarcastically, but that seems rather like a
solution looking for a problem. Until I started searching, I would
have capitalised Coco, assuming it to be somebody's name, and
hence:
"I should, Coco". It's even given as "I should cocoa" in some,
which
just looks silly.
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But it's a silly phrase, so why demur at a silly appearance? I have
no firm view on the matter; but "cocoa" feels right to me. It's not
in Partridge _Historical Sl._.
While watching the trains at Richmond and Reading today, I even mused
on the possibility of using "co-co" in a recondite railway pun on
this very phrase in this very newsgroup. By the time I was waiting at
Bristol Parkway, the idea had lost its savour, as I realized that
probably only Mike Powell, Mark Brader, and your upright self would
get it. But then things of all kinds -- even, perhaps, unto life
itself -- tend to lose their savour when you're waiting at Bristol
Parkway.
Mike. |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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Mike Lyle typed thus:
| Quote: | While watching the trains at Richmond and Reading today, I even mused
on the possibility of using "co-co" in a recondite railway pun on
this very phrase in this very newsgroup. By the time I was waiting at
Bristol Parkway, the idea had lost its savour, as I realized that
probably only Mike Powell, Mark Brader, and your upright self would
get it. But then things of all kinds -- even, perhaps, unto life
itself -- tend to lose their savour when you're waiting at Bristol
Parkway.
|
Temple Meads always sounds posher than Parkway. But what can compete
with Winnersh Triangle?
--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | Mike Lyle typed thus:
[...]
But then things of all kinds -- even, perhaps, unto life
itself -- tend to lose their savour when you're waiting at Bristol
Parkway.
Temple Meads always sounds posher than Parkway. But what can
compete
with Winnersh Triangle?
|
Hmm. I'd say practically anything on the planet could compete, with
an excellent chance of success, with Winnersh Triangle. But why did
Martin have a Heron? And why name a lame-crane substitute for a
railway station after the phenomenon?
(But, yes: Temple Meads much smarter than vulgar Parkway, in a
shabby-genteel-seen-better-days kind of style. Bristol, we must sadly
conclude, is in the wrong place.)
Mike. |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 am
Post subject: Re: "Aught" and "oftener" |
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Mike Lyle typed thus:
| Quote: | the Omrud wrote:
Mike Lyle typed thus:
[...]
But then things of all kinds -- even, perhaps, unto life
itself -- tend to lose their savour when you're waiting at Bristol
Parkway.
Temple Meads always sounds posher than Parkway. But what can
compete with Winnersh Triangle?
Hmm. I'd say practically anything on the planet could compete, with
an excellent chance of success, with Winnersh Triangle. But why did
Martin have a Heron? And why name a lame-crane substitute for a
railway station after the phenomenon?
|
I mean the name, rather than the station. How perverse to name a
railway station after a geometric shape.
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/villages/winkfield_ham.html
(excitingly entitled "Winkfield Hamlets from Bullbrook to Swinley"):
Martin's Heron is one of the most recent developments in Bracknell.
The housing estate, including the Railway Station, is built on the
parkland that once surrounded the mansion of Martin's Herne (or
Heron), originally called Goddard's Croft. The house that was pulled
down in the early 1980s was probably built around 1750. It was the
residence of a succession of high ranking army officials and minor
members of the nobility. General William Gordon lived there in the
late 18th century. He was Groom of the Bed-Chamber to King George III
and the King was a frequent visitor to Martin's Heron. A grassy walk
used to be pointed out as one that the King particularly liked to
stroll along. General Gordon is best known for controlling the mob
during the Gordon Riots of 1780 as recorded in Dicken's "Barnaby
Rudge".
I will be missing tomorrow as I have to go to Bracknell. I sometimes
praise my management for paying me so well for the simple job of
driving down motorways.
--
David
=====
replace the first component of address
with the definite article. |
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