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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In article <inm4q0h1oqqqfvpp4rgu3dliq77nkamqdi@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
| Quote: | On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:20:48 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net
wrote:
In article <tv24q0hkgcj1b4fkap4tu1kopep4r3ig2i@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
Not an answer to your question, but Wicca and other present-day
Western paganisms don't have anti-Deity-of-choice or anti-'good'
figures either.
One good mark for them then. Do they have a Deity at all?
Lots and none at all. Depends on the variety and on personal
preference. Asatru usually has the Aesir (quotation from
www.religioustolerance.org: "The governments of: Iceland in 1973,
Norway in 1996 and 1999, and Denmark in 2003 have officially
recognized Neopagan religions which worship Viking Gods such as Odin
and Thor." *) but an individual Asatruar might concentrate on just one
or two deities. Druids go for the Celtic gods, of which there are
apparently 374 - but again, any one individual Druid is more likely to
concentrate on one male and one female deity. Wiccans visualise the
Goddess and the Horned God, not necessarily named. And in all the
paths the deities may be considered as anything from literal
supernatural beings to archetypes to metaphors, depending on
preference. For most neo-pagans "belief" is very much secondary to
practice, and may be non-existent; it's certainly not any sort of
touchstone.
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Thanks, Katy, it's a subject of interest to me. So many subjects,
so little time.
| Quote: | *I'm not entirely convinced by that comma after "of".
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The colon is fine, imho, but then I'd put a comma after "Denmark
in 2003", where the main clause resumes.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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don groves wrote:
| Quote: | Wood Avens exposited:
don groves wrote:
Wood Avens exposited:
Not an answer to your question, but Wicca and other present-day
Western paganisms don't have anti-Deity-of-choice or anti-'good'
figures either.
One good mark for them then. Do they have a Deity at all?
Lots and none at all. Depends on the variety and on personal
preference. Asatru usually has the Aesir (quotation from
www.religioustolerance.org: "The governments of: Iceland in 1973,
Norway in 1996 and 1999, and Denmark in 2003 have officially
recognized Neopagan religions which worship Viking Gods such as Odin
and Thor." *) but an individual Asatruar might concentrate on just
one or two deities. Druids go for the Celtic gods, of which there
are apparently 374 - but again, any one individual Druid is more
likely to concentrate on one male and one female deity. Wiccans
visualise the Goddess and the Horned God, not necessarily named.
And in all the paths the deities may be considered as anything from
literal supernatural beings to archetypes to metaphors, depending on
preference. For most neo-pagans "belief" is very much secondary to
practice, and may be non-existent; it's certainly not any sort of
touchstone.
Thanks, Katy, it's a subject of interest to me. So many subjects,
so little time.
*I'm not entirely convinced by that comma after "of".
The colon is fine, imho, but then I'd put a comma after "Denmark
in 2003", where the main clause resumes.
|
There should be no punctuation after the "of", nor should there be any after
the "Denmark in 2003".
My two cents.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:08 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In article <30fcceF2tqg00U1@uni-berlin.de>, Skitt at skitt99
@comcast.net exposited:
| Quote: | don groves wrote:
Wood Avens exposited:
don groves wrote:
Wood Avens exposited:
Not an answer to your question, but Wicca and other present-day
Western paganisms don't have anti-Deity-of-choice or anti-'good'
figures either.
One good mark for them then. Do they have a Deity at all?
Lots and none at all. Depends on the variety and on personal
preference. Asatru usually has the Aesir (quotation from
www.religioustolerance.org: "The governments of: Iceland in 1973,
Norway in 1996 and 1999, and Denmark in 2003 have officially
recognized Neopagan religions which worship Viking Gods such as Odin
and Thor." *) but an individual Asatruar might concentrate on just
one or two deities. Druids go for the Celtic gods, of which there
are apparently 374 - but again, any one individual Druid is more
likely to concentrate on one male and one female deity. Wiccans
visualise the Goddess and the Horned God, not necessarily named.
And in all the paths the deities may be considered as anything from
literal supernatural beings to archetypes to metaphors, depending on
preference. For most neo-pagans "belief" is very much secondary to
practice, and may be non-existent; it's certainly not any sort of
touchstone.
Thanks, Katy, it's a subject of interest to me. So many subjects,
so little time.
*I'm not entirely convinced by that comma after "of".
The colon is fine, imho, but then I'd put a comma after "Denmark
in 2003", where the main clause resumes.
There should be no punctuation after the "of", nor should there be any after
the "Denmark in 2003".
My two cents.
|
I agree that if there's nothing after the "if", then nothing
should be after the "2003". But given the colon after the "if",
I'd put a comma after "2003".
My ha'penny.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
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Yusuf B Gursey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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"Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<30fb8bF2uudteU1@uni-berlin.de>...
| Quote: | Richard Maurer wrote:
David wrote:
Pagans and Wiccans in the UK are sometimes accused of
worshiping
Satan, and worse, of Satanic abuse of children. They are often
heard on the radio complaining that Satan is a Christian
concept
and so is not a factor in their religions.
I wonder how the Christian theologists get around this. Monotheism
is important, yet there are two or three gods discussed most often.
I know the part about one god having three faces, but what about
the good god (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) and the bad god (The Devil).
Yes, only one is worshipped, but there are still two gods.
Or is the devil a fourth face? Do Muslims have the same problem?
Hence the fallen angel myth: God creates several orders of beings,
including angels, and one of them rebels, so Satan isn't even a
demigod. I think God may have created jinns, though; but I'm hazy
about it.
|
muslims believe God created jinns, who may be either good or bad,
muslim or infidel.
Satan in the Qur'an is a jinn, but it is unclear what this jinn was
doing in the company of angels, leading to various intepretations like
a special category of jinns. the Qur'an explicitly rejects Dualism as
well.
Yazidism (in Iraq, Syria, SE Turkey, Armenia; most Kurdish) worship
Satan but deny he is evil. Satan (Malak Taus - the Peacock Angel) was
commissioned by God to create evil and runs most of the affairs of
Earth, while God is quite aloof. I must admit I know little about this
religion, which is quite secretive. I heard a christian - yazidi
marriage (in Turkey) was ruined because the christian spouse was
cursing Satan. |
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CyberCypher
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 pm
Post subject: Yazidism [WAS: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harm |
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Yusuf B Gursey wrote on 23 Nov 2004:
[...]
| Quote: | I must admit I know little about this religion,
which is quite secretive.
|
http://i-cias.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?yazidism.htm
There are 442 hits for Yazidism from Google
--
Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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Chris Malcolm
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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Richard Maurer <rcpb1_maurer@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I wonder how the Christian theologists get around this. Monotheism
is important, yet there are two or three gods discussed most often.
I know the part about one god having three faces, but what about
the good god (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) and the bad god (The Devil).
Yes, only one is worshipped, but there are still two gods.
Or is the devil a fourth face? Do Muslims have the same problem?
|
As the theologian(*) remarked, depends what you mean by "is".
(*)W. Clinton.
--
Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/] |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Yazidism [WAS: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring |
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Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
| Quote: | CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
news:<Xns95AA97A34386Bcctxt2002@130.133.1.4>...
Yusuf B Gursey wrote on 23 Nov 2004:
[...]
I must admit I know little about this religion,
which is quite secretive.
http://i-cias.com/cgi-bin/eo-direct.pl?yazidism.htm
There are 442 hits for Yazidism from Google
well, they used to be, before the Internet did away with secrets!
|
A paradox: I've always wanted to know exactly what they did, but
respect their right to complete privacy. It would be very sad if the
sect were to die out, leaving no complete record behind.
Mike. |
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Yusuf B Gursey
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Yazidism [WAS: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring |
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CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message news:<Xns95AA97A34386Bcctxt2002@130.133.1.4>...
well, they used to be, before the Internet did away with secrets! |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: Yazidism [WAS: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring |
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In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
There are 442 hits for Yazidism from Google
well, they used to be, before the Internet did away with secrets!
A paradox: I've always wanted to know exactly what they did, but
respect their right to complete privacy. It would be very sad if the
sect were to die out, leaving no complete record behind.
|
Indeed.
Wilfred Thesiger visited and wrote about the Yazidis and, somewhere
upstairs, I have some of his crisp B&W photographs of their houses -
lots of spiralling goats horns by the front door, I think.
I think they also crop up in Gurdjieff. (Along with the Ashokhs, the
Irish/Poles/Belgians of Armenia.)
*
A quick Google suggests that the Yazidis might be in more trouble than
they have been for decades: Saddam Hussein claimed them as Arabs and set
them against the Kurds.
Also, Ashokhs aren't a sect or race, they're bards.
--
Mickwick |
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Wood Avens
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:08 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 01:25:24 +0000, Don Aitken <don-aitken@freeuk.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Let me put in a plug for Ronald Hutton's books - "Triumph of the Moon"
and "Witches, Druids and King Arthur". Googling for the correct title
of the latter, I discovered that Walmart has a special offer on it -
$19.28. I never knew they sold books.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2220556
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I never knew that either.
'Triumph of the Moon' is excellent, but it's specifically about the
development of Wicca in England rather than about the wider field of
neo-Paganism in general, although it explores the cultural factors
which underpin both. 'Witches, Druids and King Arthur' is rather
lighter and is a collection of separate essays.
The best books I know for an overview of the various neo-pagan
groupings and traditions are both by Graham Harvey: Listening People,
Speaking Earth (1997, ISBN 1-85065-272-4) and (edited, with Charlotte
Hardman) Paganism Today (1996, ISBN 0 7225 3233 4). The latter is a
collection of pieces by practitioners of the different neo-paganisms.
(I have a feeling it may have been recently re-published under a
different title - I hate it when they do that. It's still available
under the original title, though - I checked.)
'Triumph of the Moon' is compelling stuff but it's getting on for 500
densely-written pages; the Harveys are much less than that, so a much
shorter read (either of them), especially if what's wanted is a fairly
quick overview of what paganism is like now, as opposed to an in-depth
study of how it got this way. If you do have the time, though, Ronald
Hutton is a superb writer.
| Quote: | Hutton gives the best explanation of the subject I've come across,
from the perspective of a sympathetic outsider.
|
He says he was brought up as a Pagan, so he's not quite an outsider.
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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Yusuf B Gursey
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Yazidism [WAS: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring |
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Mickwick <mickwick@use.reply.to> wrote in message news:<YOtvuwCxx4oBFwcG@shropshire.plus.com>...
| Quote: | In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote in message
There are 442 hits for Yazidism from Google
well, they used to be, before the Internet did away with secrets!
A paradox: I've always wanted to know exactly what they did, but
respect their right to complete privacy. It would be very sad if the
sect were to die out, leaving no complete record behind.
Indeed.
Wilfred Thesiger visited and wrote about the Yazidis and, somewhere
upstairs, I have some of his crisp B&W photographs of their houses -
lots of spiralling goats horns by the front door, I think.
I think they also crop up in Gurdjieff. (Along with the Ashokhs, the
Irish/Poles/Belgians of Armenia.)
*
A quick Google suggests that the Yazidis might be in more trouble than
they have been for decades: Saddam Hussein claimed them as Arabs and set
|
the official position in (IIRC Syria as wel) that they are descendants
of Yazid b. Muawiya (the 2nd Umayyad caliph; IIRC he is one of the
Yazidi "saints").
in Armenia too IIRC, they were set apart ethnically from muslim kurds.
actually most are kurdish, and the religion is derived from ancient
kurdish religion. see M. Izady "the Kurds".
I had read that there is also a group of Brits in London who fancied
Yazidism.
| Quote: | them against the Kurds.
Also, Ashokhs aren't a sect or race, they're bards. |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: Yazidism [WAS: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring |
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In alt.usage.english, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | I had read that there is also a group of Brits in London who fancied
Yazidism.
|
In Camden, I expect.
--
Mickwick |
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