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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In alt.usage.english, Mickwick wrote:
[...]
| Quote: | One the one hand, you have something that didn't need to be invented
(because it existed), so it wasn't; and on the other you have something
that might have needed to be 'invented' (though Bin Laden's wounded
vanity* and parochial Saudi concerns about infidels polluting the
peninsula's sacred soil were entirely adequate motivators for almost a
decade), so perhaps (perhaps) it was.
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No, that's no good. I forgot the conditionals (at that end of the post,
anyway).
What I'm trying to say is this: On the one hand, you had something
(neo-cons etc.) that, if it hadn't existed, might have needed to be
invented by something that did exist (Al Qaeda); on the other, you had
something (Al Qaeda) that, if it hadn't existed, might have needed to be
invented by something that also didn't exist (neo-cons etc. - they
didn't exist in the sense that weren't in power when Al Qaeda did most
of its killing), and that (the other hand, and thus the first hand too,
the importance of the first hand being solely dependent on the existence
of the second hand in constructions of this sort) doesn't make any
sense.
The only way it would make sense would be if the parallel was of the
form: On the one hand, you had something that, if it hadn't existed,
might have needed to be invented by something that would have needed to
be invented to do the inventing; and on the other, ditto.
That would imply that if neo-cons didn't exist, Al Qaeda wouldn't exist
either until the non-existence of the party of the first part had become
apparent, at which point the party of the second part would come into
being and create the party of the first part; and vice versa; which, I
suppose, isn't too far away from what Mr Malcolm was trying to say in
the first place.
--
Mickwick
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Matti Lamprhey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:04 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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"Mickwick" <mickwick@use.reply.to> wrote...
| Quote: | [...]
The only way it would make sense would be if the parallel was of the
form: On the one hand, you had something that, if it hadn't existed,
might have needed to be invented by something that would have needed
to be invented to do the inventing; and on the other, ditto.
That would imply that if neo-cons didn't exist, Al Qaeda wouldn't
exist either until the non-existence of the party of the first part
had become apparent, at which point the party of the second part
would come into being and create the party of the first part; and vice
versa; which, I suppose, isn't too far away from what Mr Malcolm was
trying to say in the first place.
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I reckon this problem was originally proposed and then solved by
chickens and eggs, undoubtedly by moving in a highly mysterious way.
Matti |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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the Omrud wrote:
| Quote: | Peter Moylan typed thus:
don groves infrared:
Right on. Just as religions need their Satan; as Heaven needs its
Hell.
Something I've always wondered: could Satanism exist without
Christianity?
As I understand it - and someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong
- modern Judaism treats Satan as someone of no more than historical
importance; a god of a now-defunct religion. It took the Christians
to elevate him back to his former glory.
If that's the case, then Satanism is merely another Christian sect.
Pagans and Wiccans in the UK are sometimes accused of worshiping
Satan, and worse, of Satanic abuse of children. They are often heard
on the radio complaining that Satan is a Christian concept and so is
not a factor in their religions.
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As far as I know, the devil (Velns) existed in Latvian pagan beliefs. He
was even married to the witch (Ragana).
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Velns
Christianity came late to the ethnic Latvians, and not all of them have
accepted it, not that they still believe in paganism, or anything like that.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
| Quote: | Also unlike those, it is not generally habit-forming nor does it lead,
except for the odd Hashishin apparently, to violence. A nearly
ideal drug, I'd say.
|
You are overlooking boredom, Charles. Pot makes the pot-smoker
unendurably boring to those who still have clear air in their nostrils.
This is an Immutable Law of Nature. If it is recognised less often than
it should be that's because most pot-smoking occurs solely amongst
pot-smokers, who can't tell the difference.
Cannabis stage one: Boringly giggly.
Cannabis stage two: Boringly verbose.
Cannabis stage three: An irritatingly sudden and unanimous
craving for chocolate, biscuits and petrol stations.
Cannabis stage four: Boringly giggly, verbose and paranoid.
(Plus jocular belching and farting.)
Cannabis stage five: Alarmingly and boringly giggly, verbose,
hungry (again), flatulent and paranoid.
Cannabis stage five (again): The Law of Fives, the whole
shebhang.
Drinkers, although often almost as boring as pot-smokers (actually,
we're worse in some ways: a drunk with a hobby-horse will never shut up
as long there is someone - anyone! - within earshot* but with
pot-smokers every moment offers a one-in-five chance that the bore will
suddenly clam up and go and hide in the bathroom or something), and
although we can be much more alarming even than a stage-five-(again)
pot-smoker (note to non-violent foreigners visiting Britain: don't leave
your hotel rooms between ten and midnight) - despite these althoughs, we
drinkers can ration, steer and control our drug far easier than
pot-smokers can theirs because the same drink is always the same
strength, and that's got to be a Good Thing.
Also, you can't get drunk by sitting in a room full of drunks.
Plus drinkers pay tax, which is a good way of funding the schemes that
pot-smokers can't stop talking about (except when they're hiding in the
bathroom).
*An epiphany: This is perhaps why many drinkers prefer to drink standing
up.
--
Mickwick,
verbose so that verbosity might be discouraged |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In article <tv24q0hkgcj1b4fkap4tu1kopep4r3ig2i@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
| Quote: | On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:57:30 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net
wrote:
I'm no expert but only Buddhism comes to mind as not having an
"anti-Buddha". Is this true of non-Western religions in general?
Are there others?
Not an answer to your question, but Wicca and other present-day
Western paganisms don't have anti-Deity-of-choice or anti-'good'
figures either.
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One good mark for them then. Do they have a Deity at all?
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In alt.usage.english, Matti Lamprhey wrote:
| Quote: | I reckon this problem was originally proposed and then solved by
chickens and eggs, undoubtedly by moving in a highly mysterious way.
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You'll never get away with this, you know. Not you, not the mysterious
Mr Malcolm, not the whole damned lot of you.
--
Mickwick |
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Richard Maurer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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David wrote:
Pagans and Wiccans in the UK are sometimes accused of worshiping
Satan, and worse, of Satanic abuse of children. They are often heard
on the radio complaining that Satan is a Christian concept and so is
not a factor in their religions.
I wonder how the Christian theologists get around this. Monotheism
is important, yet there are two or three gods discussed most often.
I know the part about one god having three faces, but what about
the good god (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) and the bad god (The Devil).
Yes, only one is worshipped, but there are still two gods.
Or is the devil a fourth face? Do Muslims have the same problem?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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Mickwick wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.usage.english, Charles Riggs wrote:
Also unlike those, it is not generally habit-forming nor does it
lead, except for the odd Hashishin apparently, to violence. A
nearly
ideal drug, I'd say.
You are overlooking boredom, Charles. Pot makes the pot-smoker
unendurably boring to those who still have clear air in their
nostrils. This is an Immutable Law of Nature. If it is recognised
less often than it should be that's because most pot-smoking occurs
solely amongst pot-smokers, who can't tell the difference.
Cannabis stage one: Boringly giggly.
Cannabis stage two: Boringly verbose.
Cannabis stage three: An irritatingly sudden and unanimous
craving for chocolate, biscuits and petrol stations.
Cannabis stage four: Boringly giggly, verbose and paranoid.
(Plus jocular belching and farting.)
Cannabis stage five: Alarmingly and boringly giggly,
verbose,
hungry (again), flatulent and paranoid.
Cannabis stage five (again): The Law of Fives, the whole
shebhang.
[...] |
All sound; but you missed out the sexy stage, which can occur at most
of the points in you table.
Mike. |
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Wood Avens
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:20:48 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <tv24q0hkgcj1b4fkap4tu1kopep4r3ig2i@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
Not an answer to your question, but Wicca and other present-day
Western paganisms don't have anti-Deity-of-choice or anti-'good'
figures either.
One good mark for them then. Do they have a Deity at all?
|
Lots and none at all. Depends on the variety and on personal
preference. Asatru usually has the Aesir (quotation from
www.religioustolerance.org: "The governments of: Iceland in 1973,
Norway in 1996 and 1999, and Denmark in 2003 have officially
recognized Neopagan religions which worship Viking Gods such as Odin
and Thor." *) but an individual Asatruar might concentrate on just one
or two deities. Druids go for the Celtic gods, of which there are
apparently 374 - but again, any one individual Druid is more likely to
concentrate on one male and one female deity. Wiccans visualise the
Goddess and the Horned God, not necessarily named. And in all the
paths the deities may be considered as anything from literal
supernatural beings to archetypes to metaphors, depending on
preference. For most neo-pagans "belief" is very much secondary to
practice, and may be non-existent; it's certainly not any sort of
touchstone.
*I'm not entirely convinced by that comma after "of".
--
Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
| Quote: | All sound; but you missed out the sexy stage, which can occur at most
of the points in you table.
|
It's been a very, very long time.
--
Mickwick |
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Skitt
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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don groves wrote:
| Quote: | Skitt exposited:
don groves wrote:
Wood Avens exposited:
don groves wrote:
Wood Avens exposited:
|
<material extranous to the punctuation issue snipped>
| Quote: | [From] www.religioustolerance.org:
"The governments of: Iceland in 1973, Norway in 1996 and 1999,
and Denmark in 2003 have officially recognized Neopagan
religions which worship Viking Gods such as Odin and Thor."
I'm not entirely convinced by that comma after "of".
The colon is fine, imho, but then I'd put a comma after "Denmark
in 2003", where the main clause resumes.
There should be no punctuation after the "of", nor should there be
any after the "Denmark in 2003".
I agree that if there's nothing after the "if", then nothing
should be after the "2003". But given the colon after the "if",
I'd put a comma after "2003".
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The colon definitely should not be there.
--
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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Don Aitken
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:03 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:43:34 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <inm4q0h1oqqqfvpp4rgu3dliq77nkamqdi@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:20:48 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net
wrote:
In article <tv24q0hkgcj1b4fkap4tu1kopep4r3ig2i@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
Not an answer to your question, but Wicca and other present-day
Western paganisms don't have anti-Deity-of-choice or anti-'good'
figures either.
One good mark for them then. Do they have a Deity at all?
Lots and none at all. Depends on the variety and on personal
preference. Asatru usually has the Aesir (quotation from
www.religioustolerance.org: "The governments of: Iceland in 1973,
Norway in 1996 and 1999, and Denmark in 2003 have officially
recognized Neopagan religions which worship Viking Gods such as Odin
and Thor." *) but an individual Asatruar might concentrate on just one
or two deities. Druids go for the Celtic gods, of which there are
apparently 374 - but again, any one individual Druid is more likely to
concentrate on one male and one female deity. Wiccans visualise the
Goddess and the Horned God, not necessarily named. And in all the
paths the deities may be considered as anything from literal
supernatural beings to archetypes to metaphors, depending on
preference. For most neo-pagans "belief" is very much secondary to
practice, and may be non-existent; it's certainly not any sort of
touchstone.
Thanks, Katy, it's a subject of interest to me. So many subjects,
so little time.
Let me put in a plug for Ronald Hutton's books - "Triumph of the Moon" |
and "Witches, Druids and King Arthur". Googling for the correct title
of the latter, I discovered that Walmart has a special offer on it -
$19.28. I never knew they sold books.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2220556
Hutton gives the best explanation of the subject I've come across,
from the perspective of a sympathetic outsider.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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In article <3245q0hubk6nscp461obni0o8maj059c97@4ax.com>, Don
Aitken at don-aitken@freeuk.com exposited:
| Quote: | On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:43:34 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net
wrote:
In article <inm4q0h1oqqqfvpp4rgu3dliq77nkamqdi@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 13:20:48 -0800, don groves <dgroves@domain.net
wrote:
In article <tv24q0hkgcj1b4fkap4tu1kopep4r3ig2i@4ax.com>, Wood
Avens at woodavens@askjennison.com exposited:
Not an answer to your question, but Wicca and other present-day
Western paganisms don't have anti-Deity-of-choice or anti-'good'
figures either.
One good mark for them then. Do they have a Deity at all?
Lots and none at all. Depends on the variety and on personal
preference. Asatru usually has the Aesir (quotation from
www.religioustolerance.org: "The governments of: Iceland in 1973,
Norway in 1996 and 1999, and Denmark in 2003 have officially
recognized Neopagan religions which worship Viking Gods such as Odin
and Thor." *) but an individual Asatruar might concentrate on just one
or two deities. Druids go for the Celtic gods, of which there are
apparently 374 - but again, any one individual Druid is more likely to
concentrate on one male and one female deity. Wiccans visualise the
Goddess and the Horned God, not necessarily named. And in all the
paths the deities may be considered as anything from literal
supernatural beings to archetypes to metaphors, depending on
preference. For most neo-pagans "belief" is very much secondary to
practice, and may be non-existent; it's certainly not any sort of
touchstone.
Thanks, Katy, it's a subject of interest to me. So many subjects,
so little time.
Let me put in a plug for Ronald Hutton's books - "Triumph of the Moon"
and "Witches, Druids and King Arthur". Googling for the correct title
of the latter, I discovered that Walmart has a special offer on it -
$19.28. I never knew they sold books.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2220556
Hutton gives the best explanation of the subject I've come across,
from the perspective of a sympathetic outsider.
|
Thanks for the tip, I'll check them out -- literally, if our
library has them.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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Richard Maurer wrote:
| Quote: | David wrote:
Pagans and Wiccans in the UK are sometimes accused of
worshiping
Satan, and worse, of Satanic abuse of children. They are often
heard on the radio complaining that Satan is a Christian
concept
and so is not a factor in their religions.
I wonder how the Christian theologists get around this. Monotheism
is important, yet there are two or three gods discussed most often.
I know the part about one god having three faces, but what about
the good god (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) and the bad god (The Devil).
Yes, only one is worshipped, but there are still two gods.
Or is the devil a fourth face? Do Muslims have the same problem?
|
Hence the fallen angel myth: God creates several orders of beings,
including angels, and one of them rebels, so Satan isn't even a
demigod. I think God may have created jinns, though; but I'm hazy
about it.
Mike. |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Where there is discord, may we bring harmony |
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Mickwick wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.usage.english, Mike Lyle wrote:
All sound; but you missed out the sexy stage, which can occur at
most
of the points in you table.
It's been a very, very long time.
|
Me too.
Mike. |
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