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O(lsen)
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:06 pm
Post subject: Getting better ... |
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Listening to 'Getting better' (The Beatles: 'Sgt Pepper') it strikes me
that they pronounce 'getting' somewhat like American, and 'better'
rather British.
Can you say anything about this mixture?
--
Soren O
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Areff
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Getting better ... |
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O(lsen) wrote:
| Quote: | Listening to 'Getting better' (The Beatles: 'Sgt Pepper') it strikes me
that they pronounce 'getting' somewhat like American, and 'better'
rather British.
Can you say anything about this mixture?
|
My recollection of the song is that they say both words in a notably
British manner, in that they pronounce the intervocalic /t/ as [t] or
maybe even [t<H>], where an American would typically use the flap sound
[*] (which might sound to Britics like "bedder"). What is it about the
"getting" that you think sounds American?
As someone (Ben Zimmer IIRC) pointed out recently, it has been observed
that the Beatles started out trying to sound "American" but over time
reverted to Britic pronunciations, in their singing (= MaccE "[sINgINg]").
Speaking of the Beatles, has anyone seen Ringo Starr during the past 24
hours or so?
--
Steny '08! |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Getting better ... |
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: |
O(lsen) wrote:
Listening to 'Getting better' (The Beatles: 'Sgt Pepper') it strikes me
that they pronounce 'getting' somewhat like American, and 'better'
rather British.
Can you say anything about this mixture?
My recollection of the song is that they say both words in a notably
British manner, in that they pronounce the intervocalic /t/ as [t] or
maybe even [t<H>], where an American would typically use the flap sound
[*] (which might sound to Britics like "bedder"). What is it about the
"getting" that you think sounds American?
|
I just listened to the song, and I think I hear what the OP might be
talking about. The /t/ in in "getting" does often sound a bit more
flap-like than the /t/ in "better". I wouldn't go so far as to call the
/t/ in "getting" a flap, but it lacks much of the aspiration in the
release of /t/ in "better". I think the aspiration in "better" is a bit
exaggerated by Paul's emphasis on the word when it occurs at the end of
a line, something like ['bE:,t<H>A:] ("bettah"). But when Paul sings
the final line of the chorus, "Get-ting so much bet-ter all the time",
with roughly equal stress on each syllable, the /t/ in "getting" sounds
just as aspirated as the /t/ in "better".
| Quote: | As someone (Ben Zimmer IIRC) pointed out recently, it has been observed
that the Beatles started out trying to sound "American" but over time
reverted to Britic pronunciations, in their singing (= MaccE "[sINgINg]").
|
Yup, that was me, referring to Peter Trudgill's article "Acts of
Conflicting Identity: The Sociolingistics of British Pop-Song
Pronunciation". Trudgill mostly focused on the Beatles' rhoticity, and
by _Sgt. Pepper's_ they had clearly reverted to their non-rhotic Scouse
pronunciation -- if anything, they might have been hamming it up a bit
(as in "bettah" above). I don't know how the return to Scouse patterns
might have affected Paul's aspiration of intervocalic /t/, though.
| Quote: | Speaking of the Beatles, has anyone seen Ringo Starr during the past 24
hours or so?
|
Rolling Stone reports: "Ringo Starr will introduce rare Beatles
performance clips on the American Music Awards this Sunday on ABC."
Will that finally put the conspiracy theories to rest? Or perhaps there
was a switch, and the fellow they brought to Cairo was actually Ringo...
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Getting better ... |
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Areff wrote:
| Quote: | O(lsen) wrote:
Listening to 'Getting better' (The Beatles: 'Sgt Pepper') it strikes
me that they pronounce 'getting' somewhat like American, and 'better'
rather British.
Can you say anything about this mixture?
My recollection of the song is that they say both words in a notably
British manner, in that they pronounce the intervocalic /t/ as [t] or
maybe even [t<H>], where an American would typically use the flap
sound [*] (which might sound to Britics like "bedder"). What is it
about the "getting" that you think sounds American?
As someone (Ben Zimmer IIRC) pointed out recently, it has been
observed that the Beatles started out trying to sound "American" but
over time reverted to Britic pronunciations, in their singing (=
MaccE "[sINgINg]").
I remember the Beatles' first appearances on Brit TV, when they were |
lucky to get a five minute spot on a regional magazine programme, and
their early appearances on BBC radio when they performed live in the
studio. And I remember their early LPs (before albums were invented) all
of which I bought and listened to until the grooves wore out. They
sounded scouse when they sang their own stuff - you can still hear Love
me Do or I Wanna hold your Hand if you dig around. When they covered US
pieces (like Chains or Mr Postman on their first LP) there was a certain
amount of Americanisation thought the Liverpudlian still showed
through - hear John sing 'shout' in "Twist and Shout". John never lost
the scouse, not in the beginning, not at the end. Paul tended to go
trans- or mid-Atlantic. Witness his version of Long Tall Sally.
Of course, what they sounded like in Hamburg is a different story.
--
John "Mach schau! Mach schau!" Dean
Oxford |
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Jess Askin
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Getting better ... |
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"John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
news:cn5h41$8bh$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
| Quote: | Areff wrote:
O(lsen) wrote:
Listening to 'Getting better' (The Beatles: 'Sgt Pepper') it strikes
me that they pronounce 'getting' somewhat like American, and 'better'
rather British.
Can you say anything about this mixture?
My recollection of the song is that they say both words in a notably
British manner, in that they pronounce the intervocalic /t/ as [t] or
maybe even [t<H>], where an American would typically use the flap
sound [*] (which might sound to Britics like "bedder"). What is it
about the "getting" that you think sounds American?
As someone (Ben Zimmer IIRC) pointed out recently, it has been
observed that the Beatles started out trying to sound "American" but
over time reverted to Britic pronunciations, in their singing (=
MaccE "[sINgINg]").
I remember the Beatles' first appearances on Brit TV, when they were
lucky to get a five minute spot on a regional magazine programme, and
their early appearances on BBC radio when they performed live in the
studio. And I remember their early LPs (before albums were invented) all
of which I bought and listened to until the grooves wore out. They
sounded scouse when they sang their own stuff - you can still hear Love
me Do or I Wanna hold your Hand if you dig around. When they covered US
pieces (like Chains or Mr Postman on their first LP) there was a certain
amount of Americanisation thought the Liverpudlian still showed
through - hear John sing 'shout' in "Twist and Shout". John never lost
the scouse, not in the beginning, not at the end. Paul tended to go
trans- or mid-Atlantic. Witness his version of Long Tall Sally.
Of course, what they sounded like in Hamburg is a different story.
|
Like this:
Du glaubst sie liebt nur mich?
Gestern hab' ich sie gesehen.
Sie denkt ja nur an dich,
Und du solltest zu ihr gehen.
Try saying that in scouse. |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:01 am
Post subject: Re: Getting better ... |
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|
Jess Askin wrote:
| Quote: | "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message
news:cn5h41$8bh$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Areff wrote:
O(lsen) wrote:
Listening to 'Getting better' (The Beatles: 'Sgt Pepper') it
strikes me that they pronounce 'getting' somewhat like American,
and 'better' rather British.
Can you say anything about this mixture?
My recollection of the song is that they say both words in a notably
British manner, in that they pronounce the intervocalic /t/ as [t]
or maybe even [t<H>], where an American would typically use the flap
sound [*] (which might sound to Britics like "bedder"). What is it
about the "getting" that you think sounds American?
As someone (Ben Zimmer IIRC) pointed out recently, it has been
observed that the Beatles started out trying to sound "American" but
over time reverted to Britic pronunciations, in their singing (=
MaccE "[sINgINg]").
I remember the Beatles' first appearances on Brit TV, when they were
lucky to get a five minute spot on a regional magazine programme, and
their early appearances on BBC radio when they performed live in the
studio. And I remember their early LPs (before albums were invented)
all of which I bought and listened to until the grooves wore out.
They sounded scouse when they sang their own stuff - you can still
hear Love me Do or I Wanna hold your Hand if you dig around. When
they covered US pieces (like Chains or Mr Postman on their first LP)
there was a certain amount of Americanisation thought the
Liverpudlian still showed
through - hear John sing 'shout' in "Twist and Shout". John never
lost the scouse, not in the beginning, not at the end. Paul tended
to go trans- or mid-Atlantic. Witness his version of Long Tall Sally.
Of course, what they sounded like in Hamburg is a different story.
Like this:
Du glaubst sie liebt nur mich?
Gestern hab' ich sie gesehen.
Sie denkt ja nur an dich,
Und du solltest zu ihr gehen.
Try saying that in scouse.
|
I was thinking more of 'My Bonny' or 'Ain't she sweet'.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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