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Kiwi Gill
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: They Themself |
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I have started to accept the singular "they" but the singular "themself"
takes a bit of swallowing.
"The student must complete all questions themself."
I'm reliably informed that it was used centuries ago and is now making a
re-appearance.
Any thoughts?
Kiwi Gill
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einde. ocallaghan
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:34 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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Kiwi Gill wrote:
| Quote: | I have started to accept the singular "they" but the singular "themself"
takes a bit of swallowing.
"The student must complete all questions themself."
I'm reliably informed that it was used centuries ago and is now making a
re-appearance.
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I've never come across it and as an English teacher I would regard it as
an error in modern English.
regards, Einde O'Callaghan |
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John Hall
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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In article <gKTkd.634$9A.37507@news.xtra.co.nz>,
Kiwi Gill <apext@xtra.co.nz> writes:
| Quote: | I have started to accept the singular "they" but the singular "themself"
takes a bit of swallowing.
"The student must complete all questions themself."
I'm reliably informed that it was used centuries ago and is now making a
re-appearance.
Any thoughts?
|
It's presumably an attempt to be "gender neutral", but it seems very odd
to me.
--
John Hall "He crams with cans of poisoned meat
The subjects of the King,
And when they die by thousands G.K.Chesterton:
Why, he laughs like anything." from "Song Against Grocers"
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Tony Mountifield
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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In article <sd7ld.926$9A.47987@news.xtra.co.nz>,
Kiwi Gill <apext@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
| Quote: | generic 'he' now being unacceptable.
|
Not to everyone.
But on the original point, I have heard "themselves" used as a gender-
neutral singular, and have most likely even used it that way myself.
Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org |
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Kiwi Gill
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:07 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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"John Hall" wrote
| Quote: |
It's presumably an attempt to be "gender neutral", but it seems very odd
to me.
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Yes, that is its purpose. I learned of it from an Australian linguist who
said she sees it these days in students' work. What's needed, it seems, is a
"gender neutral" to fit all these situations, generic 'he' now being
unacceptable. |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:04 am
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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"Kiwi Gill" <apext@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:sd7ld.926$9A.47987@news.xtra.co.nz...
| Quote: |
"John Hall" wrote
It's presumably an attempt to be "gender neutral", but it seems very odd
to me.
Yes, that is its purpose. I learned of it from an Australian linguist who
said she sees it these days in students' work. What's needed, it seems, is
a
"gender neutral" to fit all these situations, generic 'he' now being
unacceptable. |
Unacceptable to whom?
We fought the gender noun/pronoun war years ago. The PC proponents mostly
lost when cooler heads prevailed, although we allow personal preferences in
odd nooks and crannies. A female chairman can prefer to be called
chairperson or even chairwoman, while many flout that neo-convention and are
comfortable with chairman. Attempts to have it both ways, such as "he/she"
or alternating usage of he and she, are generally regarded as stilted if not
pretentious. "He" still is generally regarded as acceptable usage, although
a better method is to write around the use of a pronoun when gender might be
an issue.
Years ago, tongue firmly planted in cheek, I suggested a pronoun that
encompassed all three genders, male, famale, and neutral - hey! we can't
discriminate against the third gender! The universal pronoun: hesheit.
Say it quickly to get the joke. |
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Molly Mockford
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:03 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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At 22:01:09 on Fri, 12 Nov 2004, John Mazor <mazorj@erols.com> wrote in
<-ZGdncvrjvZm5QjcRVn-gA@rcn.net>:
| Quote: | A female chairman can prefer to be called
chairperson or even chairwoman, while many flout that neo-convention and are
comfortable with chairman.
|
But "chair" gets around any problems quite easily.
And I have noticed that the type of man who says "I don't want to be
referred to as a chair - I'm not a piece of wood" is generally perfectly
content to form part of a board.
--
Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:27 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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On Saturday, in article <sd7ld.926$9A.47987@news.xtra.co.nz>
apext@xtra.co.nz "Kiwi Gill" wrote:
| Quote: | "John Hall" wrote
It's presumably an attempt to be "gender neutral", but it seems very odd
to me.
Yes, that is its purpose. I learned of it from an Australian linguist who
said she sees it these days in students' work. What's needed, it seems, is a
"gender neutral" to fit all these situations, generic 'he' now being
unacceptable.
|
Just needs a disclaimer to the effect that "Throughout this document 'he'
embraces 'she'". :-)
--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk
"I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
software and decent hardware support." |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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"Molly Mockford" <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote in message
news:$KX3O8v63clBFwxs@molly.mockford...
| Quote: | At 22:01:09 on Fri, 12 Nov 2004, John Mazor <mazorj@erols.com> wrote in
-ZGdncvrjvZm5QjcRVn-gA@rcn.net>:
A female chairman can prefer to be called
chairperson or even chairwoman, while many flout that neo-convention and
are
comfortable with chairman.
But "chair" gets around any problems quite easily.
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That gets by in informal conversation, but in my experience, it usually
won't do for letterheads and official titles.
| Quote: | And I have noticed that the type of man who says "I don't want to be
referred to as a chair - I'm not a piece of wood" is generally perfectly
content to form part of a board.
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Good 'un, although I've never heard a male voice that particular objection.
Some gender distinctions are worth preserving. Aviatrix for a female
aviator has pretty much disappeared as unnecessary, but would anyone know
what you were talking about if you referred to a dominatrix as a dominator?
 |
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Kiwi Gill
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:00 am
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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"Molly Mockford" wrote
| Quote: | And I have noticed that the type of man who says "I don't want to be
referred to as a chair - I'm not a piece of wood" is generally perfectly
content to form part of a board.
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Particularly if he is given a platform as well...
Kiwi Gill |
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Kiwi Gill
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:00 am
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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"John Mazor" wrote
| Quote: | "Kiwi Gill" <apext@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:sd7ld.926$9A.47987@news.xtra.co.nz...
Yes, that is its purpose. I learned of it from an Australian linguist
who
said she sees it these days in students' work. What's needed, it seems,
is
a
"gender neutral" to fit all these situations, generic 'he' now being
unacceptable.
Unacceptable to whom?
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It seems that the rule of generic 'he' was a favourite of some early
grammarians because of notions such as "let us set the man before the woman
for manner's sake' and 'the worthier is preferred and set before...' etc,
etc.
Sorry I can't produce chapter and verse - I'm quoting from the book
'Blooming English' in which these gems of male reasoning are quoted without
reference.
I have no objection to the generic 'man' but can't help wishing there could
be gender neutral singular pronouns.
| Quote: | Years ago, tongue firmly planted in cheek, I suggested a pronoun that
encompassed all three genders, male, famale, and neutral - hey! we can't
discriminate against the third gender! The universal pronoun: hesheit.
Say it quickly to get the joke.
|
LOL.
There was an attempt to get 'hir' going in corners of the literary world
once for his/her (yes, I know, doesn't really work, does it? It seems to
favour the wimmin.  )
Kiwi Gill |
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bogus address
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:46 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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| Quote: | And I have noticed that the type of man who says "I don't want to
be referred to as a chair - I'm not a piece of wood" is generally
perfectly content to form part of a board.
Particularly if he is given a platform as well...
|
As he will be if he's managerial timber and at the top of the tree
in the organization.
========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. |
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John Mazor
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:04 am
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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"Kiwi Gill" <apext@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3GDld.1506$9A.66570@news.xtra.co.nz...
| Quote: |
"Molly Mockford" wrote
And I have noticed that the type of man who says "I don't want to be
referred to as a chair - I'm not a piece of wood" is generally perfectly
content to form part of a board.
Particularly if he is given a platform as well...
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And the floor. |
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Citizen Ted
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:00 am
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:23:15 +0000, John Hall
<nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <gKTkd.634$9A.37507@news.xtra.co.nz>,
Kiwi Gill <apext@xtra.co.nz> writes:
I have started to accept the singular "they" but the singular "themself"
takes a bit of swallowing.
"The student must complete all questions themself."
I'm reliably informed that it was used centuries ago and is now making a
re-appearance.
Any thoughts?
It's presumably an attempt to be "gender neutral", but it seems very odd
to me.
|
I have seen instances where the female gender is preferentially
identified in pronouns. I'm currently poring over "Mastering Audio" by
Bob Katz, a technical tome about post-mix audio engineering. In it, he
often makes statements like: "The engineer can decide how she wants to
employ dithering techniques, provided she is careful not to introduce
white noise into her mix". I can understand Mr. Katz' interest in
championing women in this male-dominated field, as women are
increasingly interested in the technical aspects of music and should
be encouraged to make continual inroads.
Nonetheless, I was schooled in the 1970's, when the male gender was
universally employed to describe neutral pronouns. Thus, when I read
"The student must complete all questions himself", I do not instantly
conjure up a Neolithic bully filling out a questionnaire. Magically, I
see it as gender neutral.
But that's just me, and I'm a slathering bigot.
- TR |
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Phil C.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: They Themself |
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 05:45:15 GMT, Citizen Ted
<enoid801DUMP@THIScomcast.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Nonetheless, I was schooled in the 1970's, when the male gender was
universally employed to describe neutral pronouns. Thus, when I read
"The student must complete all questions himself", I do not instantly
conjure up a Neolithic bully filling out a questionnaire. Magically, I
see it as gender neutral.
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I hope you continue to use the gender-neutral "his" and not that
ghastly new-fangled "its". No sign of "its" in the original King James
Version -
http://tinyurl.com/5un66
"For instance, a word which has become common to us is the neuter
possessive pronoun "its." That word does not occur in the edition of
1611, and appears first in an edition in the printing of 1660. In
place of it, in the edition of 1611, the more dignified personal
pronoun "his" or "her" is always used, and it continues for the most
part in our familiar version. In this verse you notice it: "Look not
upon the wine when it is red; when it giveth HIS color aright in the
cup."
--
Phil C. |
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