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Nigel Greenwood
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:01 pm
Post subject: Macaronic tmesis |
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Today's Guardian features a short article entitled "The worst toilet
in Shanghai", which ends with the phrase:
" ... a problem that his staff should tackle on behalf of the alley's
residents tout freaking suite."
For the story in full (requires a strong stomach!), see:
http://tinyurl.com/6pou5
Nigel
ScriptMaster language resources (Persian/Turkish/Modern & Classical
Greek/Russian/Romanian/Esperanto/IPA):
http://www.elgin.free-online.co.uk |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk (Nigel Greenwood) wrote in message news:<7a31b7bf.0411111016.691ae8ea@posting.google.com>...
| Quote: | Today's Guardian features a short article entitled "The worst toilet
in Shanghai", which ends with the phrase:
" ... a problem that his staff should tackle on behalf of the alley's
residents tout freaking suite."
For the story in full (requires a strong stomach!), see:
http://tinyurl.com/6pou5
|
What is macaronic in it, the skipping of 'de', courtesy of the already
present pronunciation of a final t, or including the procedure in a
wider definition of tmesis? |
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Pieter Z.
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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"Nigel Greenwood" <ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7a31b7bf.0411111016.691ae8ea@posting.google.com
| Quote: | Today's Guardian features a short article entitled "The worst toilet
in Shanghai", which ends with the phrase:
" ... a problem that his staff should tackle on behalf of the alley's
residents tout freaking suite."
|
Not a terrible lot to do with it, but reminds me of that excellent Alan
Parker movie, *Angel Heart*, featuring a New Orleans trumpeter (or was
it saxophone player?) by the name of Toots Sweet. It sure beat the pun
with Robert de Niro as the guy called Louis Cypher (no spoilers here).
Go see it, it's good.
Cheers,
Pieter
********
http://www.zanorg.com/prodperso/punk.swf |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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mb wrote:
| Quote: |
ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk (Nigel Greenwood) wrote in message news:<7a31b7bf.0411111016.691ae8ea@posting.google.com>...
Today's Guardian features a short article entitled "The worst toilet
in Shanghai", which ends with the phrase:
" ... a problem that his staff should tackle on behalf of the alley's
residents tout freaking suite."
For the story in full (requires a strong stomach!), see:
http://tinyurl.com/6pou5
What is macaronic in it, the skipping of 'de', courtesy of the already
present pronunciation of a final t, or including the procedure in a
wider definition of tmesis?
|
I should think that it's the mixture of English and French in the
expression; although I suppose "macaronic" most strictly refers to
Latinized vernacular or dog-Latin, especially in verse, it's not much
of an extension to include hybrids of other languages.
As for "tmesis", while again narrowly construed it refers to a split
compound word, I don't think the inclusion of set phrases as 'words'
stretches it very far. What about the converse extension -- is there
a term for cleaving a non-compound word, as in
"abso-freaking-lutely"? While doing dry-firing exercises during my
training in the artillery reserves, our crews were drilled to shout
"KerfuckingBOOM!" in unison at the pull of the gun's trigger lanyard.
--
Odysseus |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:00 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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Odysseus wrote:
| Quote: |
As for "tmesis", while again narrowly construed it refers to a split
compound word, I don't think the inclusion of set phrases as 'words'
stretches it very far. What about the converse extension -- is there
a term for cleaving a non-compound word, as in
"abso-freaking-lutely"? While doing dry-firing exercises during my
training in the artillery reserves, our crews were drilled to shout
"KerfuckingBOOM!" in unison at the pull of the gun's trigger lanyard.
|
That would be "expletive infixation", discussed at length in John
McCarthy's 1982 article "Prosodic Structure and Expletive Infixation" in
_Language_ 58(3):574-590 (in turn building on Jim McCawley's 1978 paper
"Where You Can Shove Infixes"). |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote
| Quote: | tout freaking suite."
What is macaronic in it, the skipping of 'de', courtesy of the already
present pronunciation of a final t, or including the procedure in a
wider definition of tmesis?
I should think that it's the mixture of English and French in the
expression; although I suppose "macaronic" most strictly refers to
Latinized vernacular or dog-Latin, especially in verse, it's not much
of an extension to include hybrids of other languages.
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Bah, there isn't much of the mixture in an age and day where any
French word or expression, wether used properly or improperly, is
declared English if embedded in English text and everybody keeps
barking at me that even if it is a hapax-import it has to be discussed
as English (see eng usg). Even mixtures, or even chimerae like
'automobile', are not "macaronic" per se. The use of that term usually
required deficiency in grammar (esp. replacement of higher lang
grammar by vernacular) and malapropism.
| Quote: | As for "tmesis", while again narrowly construed it refers to a split
compound word, I don't think the inclusion of set phrases as 'words'
stretches it very far. What about the converse extension -- is there
a term for cleaving a non-compound word, as in
"abso-freaking-lutely"?
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I love the practice and indulge in it, but again is it 'tmesis'
strictu senso? Well, it sounds cute and esoteric, has something to do
with a perhaps similar phenomenon, and one can always says the word
was imported for the 'absofucking' form because tmesis proper would be
hard to define in English.
| Quote: | While doing dry-firing exercises during my
training in the artillery reserves, our crews were drilled to shout
"KerfuckingBOOM!" in unison at the pull of the gun's trigger lanyard.
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Unrelated to the rest, what does the yelling accomplish? |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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Pieter Z. wrote:
| Quote: | "Nigel Greenwood" <ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7a31b7bf.0411111016.691ae8ea@posting.google.com
Today's Guardian features a short article entitled "The worst toilet
in Shanghai", which ends with the phrase:
" ... a problem that his staff should tackle on behalf of the alley's
residents tout freaking suite."
Not a terrible lot to do with it, but reminds me of that excellent
Alan Parker movie, *Angel Heart*, featuring a New Orleans trumpeter
(or was it saxophone player?) by the name of Toots Sweet.
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I recollect the military exhortation :
"And I want that done toot sweet and the tooter the sweeter"
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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mb wrote:
| Quote: |
ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk (Nigel Greenwood) wrote in message news:<7a31b7bf.0411111016.691ae8ea@posting.google.com>...
Today's Guardian features a short article entitled "The worst toilet
in Shanghai", which ends with the phrase:
" ... a problem that his staff should tackle on behalf of the alley's
residents tout freaking suite."
For the story in full (requires a strong stomach!), see:
http://tinyurl.com/6pou5
What is macaronic in it, the skipping of 'de', courtesy of the already
present pronunciation of a final t, or including the procedure in a
wider definition of tmesis?
|
"toot sweet" is pretty ordinary colloquial English, requiring no
knowledge of French, and it's a bit affected of the reporter to try to
impose French orthography.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
| Quote: | mb wrote:
ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk (Nigel Greenwood) wrote in message
news:<7a31b7bf.0411111016.691ae8ea@posting.google.com>...
Today's Guardian features a short article entitled "The worst toilet
in Shanghai", which ends with the phrase:
" ... a problem that his staff should tackle on behalf of the
alley's residents tout freaking suite."
For the story in full (requires a strong stomach!), see:
http://tinyurl.com/6pou5
What is macaronic in it, the skipping of 'de', courtesy of the
already
present pronunciation of a final t, or including the procedure in a
wider definition of tmesis?
"toot sweet" is pretty ordinary colloquial English, requiring no
knowledge of French, and it's a bit affected of the reporter to try to
impose French orthography.
|
San fairy ann
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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mb wrote:
| Quote: |
Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote
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[snip]
| Quote: |
While doing dry-firing exercises during my
training in the artillery reserves, our crews were drilled to shout
"KerfuckingBOOM!" in unison at the pull of the gun's trigger lanyard.
Unrelated to the rest, what does the yelling accomplish?
|
I don't know: perhaps it was intended as a sort of conditioning, to
make the real detonations less startling later on, but it may have
been to build morale, or just to perpetuate a fond tradition.
--
Odysseus |
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M. J. Powell
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:00 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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In message <419658CA.A41D034C@yahoo-dot.ca>, Odysseus
<odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> writes
| Quote: | mb wrote:
Odysseus <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote
[snip]
While doing dry-firing exercises during my
training in the artillery reserves, our crews were drilled to shout
"KerfuckingBOOM!" in unison at the pull of the gun's trigger lanyard.
Unrelated to the rest, what does the yelling accomplish?
I don't know: perhaps it was intended as a sort of conditioning, to
make the real detonations less startling later on, but it may have
been to build morale, or just to perpetuate a fond tradition.
|
Perhaps they were all deaf?
Mike
--
M.J.Powell |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:00 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message news:<4195B734.D971574B@midway.uchicago.edu>...
| Quote: | That would be "expletive infixation", discussed at length in John
McCarthy's 1982 article "Prosodic Structure and Expletive Infixation" in
_Language_ 58(3):574-590 (in turn building on Jim McCawley's 1978 paper
"Where You Can Shove Infixes").
|
Bingo. I knew it could have an almost-plain English name, never mind
the Lat, but enough to avoid the genteel-eschatologic sound of tmesis. |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:00 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<41960D88.4F71@worldnet.att.net>...
| Quote: | What is macaronic in it, the skipping of 'de', courtesy of the already
present pronunciation of a final t, or including the procedure in a
wider definition of tmesis?
"toot sweet" is pretty ordinary colloquial English, requiring no
knowledge of French, and it's a bit affected of the reporter to try to
impose French orthography.
|
Thanks for confirming that. So now we have an expletive infix in
perfectly everyday English and got rid of both tmesis and noodles. |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:00 am
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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mb wrote:
| Quote: |
"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<41960D88.4F71@worldnet.att.net>...
What is macaronic in it, the skipping of 'de', courtesy of the already
present pronunciation of a final t, or including the procedure in a
wider definition of tmesis?
"toot sweet" is pretty ordinary colloquial English, requiring no
knowledge of French, and it's a bit affected of the reporter to try to
impose French orthography.
Thanks for confirming that. So now we have an expletive infix in
perfectly everyday English and got rid of both tmesis and noodles.
|
"Toot sweet" might be perfectly everyday English, but it's still marked
as a foreignism (and a Gallicism at that), which I think heightens the
comedic effect of infixing an earthy expletive. I'm reminded of another
infixed form, "la di freakin' da", as popularized by the late Chris
Farley... though I suppose "la di da" is usually imitative of affected
English speech rather than French speech. I'm sure one could find other
infixed Gallicisms... "Bon freakin' jour/voyage/appetit"? "C'est la
freakin' vie"? "Deja freakin' vu"? |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Macaronic tmesis |
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Ben Zimmer wrote:
| Quote: |
"Toot sweet" might be perfectly everyday English, but it's still marked
as a foreignism (and a Gallicism at that), which I think heightens the
comedic effect of infixing an earthy expletive. I'm reminded of another
infixed form, "la di freakin' da", as popularized by the late Chris
Farley... though I suppose "la di da" is usually imitative of affected
English speech rather than French speech. I'm sure one could find other
infixed Gallicisms... "Bon freakin' jour/voyage/appetit"? "C'est la
freakin' vie"? "Deja freakin' vu"?
|
Pardon my freakin' French?
--
Odysseus |
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