| Author |
Message |
Paul Wolff
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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In message <307au1F2sq8mbU1@uni-berlin.de>, Mike Lyle
<mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
My favorite is another page Mickwick recommended:
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/85/
Gazing at the stars in the distant sky, the
astronomer does not notice the pit in front of him
and falls into it
In eos, qui, proximioribus spretis, remotiora sequuntur
So much packed into one sentence.
I think, though, that the artist lost the idea of falling -- the
guy
looks rather balanced. Maybe he's climbing out afterwards.
I wish there was a Latin babelfish. I can't tie all those words to
all
those words.
Nor will you, as they aren't all there. I know the story, of course,
but don't recognize the quotation; all it says, though, is "Against
[or maybe "Concerning"] those who, disdaining the nearer, pursue more
distant things".
Much better than mine! |
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!
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J. W. Love
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 6:04 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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Donna quoted & wrote:
| Quote: | Gazing at the stars in the distant sky, the
astronomer does not notice the pit in front of him
and falls into it
In eos, qui, proximioribus spretis, remotiora sequuntur
So much packed into one sentence. . . .
I wish there was a Latin babelfish. I can't tie all those words
to all those words.
|
As you say, it's packed; slavishly & "literally": 'Into (regarding, concerning,
about, upon, against) those (them) which (that), the nearer ones having been
spurned (with the nearer ones spurned, after spurning the nearer things, etc.),
follow the farther ones.' Or so it seems. Unpack it as you like! |
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Mike Lyle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:01 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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Paul Wolff wrote:
| Quote: | In message <307au1F2sq8mbU1@uni-berlin.de>, Mike Lyle
mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> writes
Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]
My favorite is another page Mickwick recommended:
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/85/
Gazing at the stars in the distant sky, the
astronomer does not notice the pit in front of him
and falls into it
In eos, qui, proximioribus spretis, remotiora sequuntur
So much packed into one sentence.
I think, though, that the artist lost the idea of falling -- the
guy
looks rather balanced. Maybe he's climbing out afterwards.
I wish there was a Latin babelfish. I can't tie all those words
to
all those words.
Nor will you, as they aren't all there. I know the story, of
course,
but don't recognize the quotation; all it says, though, is
"Against
[or maybe "Concerning"] those who, disdaining the nearer, pursue
more
distant things".
Much better than mine!
|
Ta. You reckon I could work "against", "disdain", and "distant" into
one of my Anglo-Saxon pastiches?
Mike.
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Ray Heindl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department) |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The "o" in question is the vowel of Spanish "dos" or French "eau,"
not the "o" in "dot." It has long been used in IPA (and in ASCII
IPA, which is what I'm using here) to represent the first vowel of
the American English version of the diphthong traditionally called
"long 'o.'" Newer entries in the online OED use it when
representing American English pronunciation. To take an example
that was an OED Word of the Day a while back, and which is labeled
"NEW EDITION: draft entry Dec. 2002," "montero," a word borrowed
from Spanish, is represented as having /@U/ for the final vowel in
the British pronunciation, /oU/ as the final vowel in the American
pronunciation.
|
I ran across that difference in looking up "d'oh" in the OED, and
wondered if the difference in representation implies that the British
and American pronunciations are different. The OED's pronunciation
guide says it's the vowel in "goat", in both cases, so do USans and
UKans pronounce "goat" differently?
--
Ray Heindl
(remove the Xs to reply to: xvortren-news@yaxhoo.com) |
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Jens Brix Christiansen
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: boars [WAS: department of redundancy department] |
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Jim Ward <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote in message news:<96aep0lt451rlo1homlh7het93n8t1f61r@4ax.com>...
| Quote: | This is probably as good a time as any to mention Schrimnir the boar,
who is cooked nightly for the heroes of Valhalla and becomes whole
every morning so they can have hot links.
|
In Danish, the boar's name is Sćrimner - three syllables with stress
on the first syllable. It seems to be derived from the Old Norse name
SćhrímniR. HrímniR itself is a name that means more or less "covered
by frost"; it is closely related to the contemporary Danish word "rim"
which means "frost". The first syllable, "sć" means "sea" and is
related to the contemporary Danish word "sř".
It is weird that the letter "ć" can be transformed to a "c" in a
manner which is authoritative enough to make into a serious posting on
a.u.e. Is the "c" a perpetuated typo, or does it reflect "real"
evolution of the word in English?
More information here: http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods3.html#S |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: boars [WAS: department of redundancy department] |
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Jens Brix Christiansen <jens@alesia.dk> wrote:
| Quote: | Jim Ward <tomcatpolka@NyOaShPoAoM.com> wrote
This is probably as good a time as any to mention Schrimnir the boar,
who is cooked nightly for the heroes of Valhalla and becomes whole
every morning so they can have hot links.
In Danish, the boar's name is Sćrimner - three syllables with stress
on the first syllable. It seems to be derived from the Old Norse name
SćhrímniR. HrímniR itself is a name that means more or less "covered
by frost"; it is closely related to the contemporary Danish word "rim"
which means "frost". The first syllable, "sć" means "sea" and is
related to the contemporary Danish word "sř".
It is weird that the letter "ć" can be transformed to a "c" in a
manner which is authoritative enough to make into a serious posting on
a.u.e. Is the "c" a perpetuated typo, or does it reflect "real"
evolution of the word in English?
More information here: http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/gods3.html#S
|
SćhrímniR (or Saehrimnir) certainly outnumbers Schrimnir on the Web by
1,170 to 39 (searching all languages). It looks like the all of the Sch-
version are on English pages, including the influential Bulfinch's
Mythology. Two on-line versions of his "Age of Chivalry" show it with a
C, and the alphabetizing in a glossary shows it was not a typo:
SCHERIA, mythical island, abode of the Phaeacians
SCHRIMNIR, the boar, cooked nightly for the heroes of Valhalla
becoming whole every morning
SCIO, one of the island cities claiming to be Homer's birthplace
Beyond that I can't say, whether this was a legitimate variant at the
time (maybe affected by subsequent spelling reforms?) or what. On
Bulfinch:
Thomas Bulfinch (1796-1867) is remembered for his
retelling of classic tales of myth, fable, and
adventure . He was the son of a prosperous Boston
family, the Bulfinchs, and received an education at
Boston Latin School, Phillips Exeter Academy, and
Harvard University...
He began writing in middle age and gradually
transformed staid classics into exciting, living
retellings meant to attract and enthrall a new
expansive audience. All of his books aimed to make
great literature accessible to the public. "Hebrew
Lyrical History" (1873) arranged the psalms in
chronological order of Jewish history to enhance
their interest. "The Age of Fable: Or Stories of
Gods and Heroes" (1855) (latter renamed "Bulfinch's
Mythology") retold Greek and Roman myth in a
charming way.
His later works included retelling of other myths
including the "Age of Chivalry" (1858), "Legends of
Charlemagne" (1863), "Oregon and Eldorado" (1866),
and "Poetry of the Age of Fable" (1863)...
I went back to see how many English pages had the Saehrminir spelling.
It was tricky -- I could see I was getting an enormous number of
duplicates from those computer-generated-text sites, which when
displayed looked like:
Find Local Painting Contractors - Painters A6
... Safiya Safiyah Saffir Safford Saffron Safia Safina Safa Safara
Safdar Safeer Saffi Saer Saeth Saeunn Saewald Saeweard Sa'eeda
Saeger Saehrimnir Saelac Saelig ...
Find Local Painting Contractors - Painters C1
... Safiya Safiyah Saffir Safford Saffron Safia Safina Safa Safara
Safdar Safeer Saffi Saer Saeth Saeunn Saewald Saeweard Sa'eeda
Saeger Saehrimnir Saelac Saelig ...
Find Local Painting Contractors - Painters A9
... Safiya Safiyah Saffir Safford Saffron Safia Safina Safa Safara
Safdar Safeer Saffi Saer Saeth Saeunn Saewald Saeweard Sa'eeda
Saeger Saehrimnir Saelac Saelig ...
Taking out "Safiyah Saffir" I still get
Tainted Visage : Poetry, Fiction, Articles. A Writers Community &
... roc rock rockmole rockpiercer rocktroll rogue rok rompo rope
ropegolem roperite rosualt rothe rukh rumptifusel rust rustmonster
saehrimnir safat saggitarius ...
Tainted Visage : Poetry, Fiction, Articles. A Writers Community &
... roc rock rockmole rockpiercer rocktroll rogue rok rompo rope
ropegolem roperite rosualt rothe rukh rumptifusel rust rustmonster
saehrimnir safat saggitarius ...
Tainted Visage : Poetry, Fiction, Articles. A Writers Community &
... roc rock rockmole rockpiercer rocktroll rogue rok rompo rope
ropegolem roperite rosualt rothe rukh rumptifusel rust rustmonster
saehrimnir safat saggitarius ...
I think I'm reaching the first time when I think we've got to stop using
the second Google number and start using the first -- at least, in my
display of 100 hits per page, I get a message at the top that reads
Results 1 - 86 of about 965 English pages for SćhrímniR
I suspect we're going to have to start counting that as 86 and not 965.
There's just too big of a difference. But this raises other problems,
too.
Anyway, when I re-do that worldwide search and screen out those phrases,
and screen out repeats, and scroll to the last page instead of going by
their estimate, I find that were only 191 hits worldwide, not the
estimated 1170. Darn.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Dylan Nicholson
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:05 am
Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department) |
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"Ray Heindl" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:Xns95A7A4219D31amfmssb@130.133.1.4...
| Quote: | "Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote:
The "o" in question is the vowel of Spanish "dos" or French "eau,"
not the "o" in "dot." It has long been used in IPA (and in ASCII
IPA, which is what I'm using here) to represent the first vowel of
the American English version of the diphthong traditionally called
"long 'o.'" Newer entries in the online OED use it when
representing American English pronunciation. To take an example
that was an OED Word of the Day a while back, and which is labeled
"NEW EDITION: draft entry Dec. 2002," "montero," a word borrowed
from Spanish, is represented as having /@U/ for the final vowel in
the British pronunciation, /oU/ as the final vowel in the American
pronunciation.
I ran across that difference in looking up "d'oh" in the OED, and
wondered if the difference in representation implies that the British
and American pronunciations are different. The OED's pronunciation
guide says it's the vowel in "goat", in both cases, so do USans and
UKans pronounce "goat" differently?
Well I certainly tell you that my "goat" is has /@U/, which is not the same |
as how I hear/say "d'oh".
As far as the AmE pronunciation of this vowel goes though, www.m-w.com
actually demonstrates what I think is both.
For "dough" it has what sounds pretty much like /oU/, but for "no" it has
something *much* closer to /@U/.
Even for "dough", the 'o' sound is hardly a pure Romance-language
'o'. But I saved the "no" as a wave file, and cut off the end, and there's
no trace of /o/ in there to my ears.
So I'm not convinced at all that /oU/ is an adequate transcription of
the long O vowel sound. |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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In alt.usage.english, Ben Zimmer wrote:
You searched for 'bottoms'!
Shame on you!
Had you searched for 'bottom' you would have found the far more edifying
'Because he is unable to reach the water at the bottom, a raven throws
stones into a jar to force the water to rise':
http://www.mnemosyne.org/emb/pix/full/embmne_pad1615_pic218.jpg
--
Mickwick |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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Mickwick <mickwick@use.reply.to> wrote:
| Quote: | In alt.usage.english, Ben Zimmer wrote:
Here's another good one (from the Dutch History Bible, c. 1430):
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=3583
Astyages' wife and mother insult the Persians by
showing their naked bottoms.
|
If I knew how to look for tell-tale Photoshop clues, I'd sure check that
one out. It just doesn't seem possible. But still, I believe it...
I don't know if there is any shape of jar where that would truly work. I
once tested a couple of shapes and wound up merely with dry pebbles
sitting on top of some wet ones. Once the water is full of stones, more
stones can't raise the level.
It would raise the water level if it was very near the top anyway, but
then the bird could just stretch down a little farther. So I don't know
if there is some middling range that would both raise the level and be
significant to the bird.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:00 pm
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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Mickwick wrote:
| Quote: |
In alt.usage.english, Ben Zimmer wrote:
Here's another good one (from the Dutch History Bible, c. 1430):
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=3583
Astyages' wife and mother insult the Persians by
showing their naked bottoms.
You searched for 'bottoms'!
Shame on you!
|
Huh? I was actually browsing the "Asiatic races and peoples" category,
hoping to find early Dutch depictions of the East Indies. I certainly
wasn't expecting to find any Median mooning. Well, as the say, one
man's Mede is another man's Persian. (Thank you, George S. Kaufman.)
Edifying indeed. But here are some more perplexing ones:
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=embmne_sam1566_068
A man is feeding the grimacing face hidden beneath the
feathers of the peacock to which he is chained.
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=embmne_whi1586_058
A monkey is using the paw of a dog to take out chestnuts
from a fire.
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=embmne_sam1569_171
To be cured from epilepsy a child touches an owl, thereby
slowly killing the animal.
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=embepu_nj1620_029
A soldier, a monk and an old man on crutches all offer to
buy the naked woman the fisherman has in his fish-trap. |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:03 pm
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
That one gives an English verse when you click on the picture. Most
interesting; ruthlessly using another as a tool -- that has to be a
useful image.
I wondered briefly about the modern British "pull one's chestnuts out of
the fire" but I don't attach any sense of heartlessly using someone else
for personal gain, there. Isn't that one just rescuing someone, or
rescuing oneself?
Yet when I check the Oxford Dic. of English Proverbs, it only has the
monkey one: "To take the chestnuts out of the fire with the cat's
(dog's) paw," and it attributes it to La Fontaine. It doesn't have any
other sayings about chestnuts. The last citation is:
1868 ... You served us all pretty much the same
as the monkey did the cat when he wanted the hot
chestnuts.
I hope Laura is not reading about chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
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John Dean
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
Edifying indeed. But here are some more perplexing ones:
http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=embmne_whi1586_058
A monkey is using the paw of a dog to take out chestnuts
from a fire.
That one gives an English verse when you click on the picture. Most
interesting; ruthlessly using another as a tool -- that has to be a
useful image.
I wondered briefly about the modern British "pull one's chestnuts out
of the fire" but I don't attach any sense of heartlessly using
someone else for personal gain, there. Isn't that one just rescuing
someone, or rescuing oneself?
Yet when I check the Oxford Dic. of English Proverbs, it only has the
monkey one: "To take the chestnuts out of the fire with the cat's
(dog's) paw," and it attributes it to La Fontaine. It doesn't have any
other sayings about chestnuts. The last citation is:
1868 ... You served us all pretty much the same
as the monkey did the cat when he wanted the hot
chestnuts.
I hope Laura is not reading about chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
|
I can just see her from my window. She is passing under the spreading
chestnut tree.
--
John Dean
Oxford |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:02 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 14:37:37 +0100, "John Dean"
<john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote:
| Quote: | I hope Laura is not reading about chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
I can just see her from my window. She is passing under the spreading
chestnut tree.
|
Are you sure that's the right Laura? I think it's the Smith woman.
The one from the islands. |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:04 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote:
| Quote: | Donna Richoux wrote:
|
[..]
| Quote: | I hope Laura is not reading about chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
I can just see her from my window. She is passing under the spreading
chestnut tree.
|
Are you ging-gang-gooli-gooli-gooli-gooli watching her?
--
Mickwick |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:05 am
Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars] |
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|
In alt.usage.english, Ben Zimmer wrote:
| Quote: | Mickwick wrote:
You searched for 'bottoms'!
Shame on you!
Huh? I was actually browsing the "Asiatic races and peoples" category,
hoping to find early Dutch depictions of the East Indies. I certainly
wasn't expecting to find any Median mooning.
|
Sorry, Ben. I was just being silly.
| Quote: | Well, as the say, one man's Mede is another man's Persian. (Thank
you, George S. Kaufman.)
|
Yes. Thank you, George.
[...]
We might be in Yazidi territory with that one - or even
Illuminatus!-land. The man who engraved it, Joannes Sambucus, was a
doctor, book collector and occultist at the court of the Holy Roman
Emperor (doesn't sound right: simply 'Emperor'?) Rudolf II and an
acquaintance of both Edward Kelly/Kelley, the earless forger and
con-artist who tricked John Dee into wasting the last years of his life
in Hungary talking to angels about the Philosopher's Stone, and of Dee
himself.
Or it might simply be an allegorical family emblem cobbled together for
a minor aristocrat.
Zsámboky's emblemata are explained in at least one published book but
there doesn't seem to be anything in English on the Web.
(Mr Barratt, sir! How's your Hungarian?)
[...]
| Quote: | http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=embepu_nj1620_029
A soldier, a monk and an old man on crutches all offer to
buy the naked woman the fisherman has in his fish-trap.
|
?!
--
Mickwick |
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