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Dylan Nicholson
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 am Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

"Ben Zimmer" <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:419D4EAB.A798E220@midway.uchicago.edu...

Quote:

Areff wrote:

Stan Brown wrote:
trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
It's not pronounced like "doe" or "dough". It's pronounced with a break:
"d---oh" because it is someone stopping themselves from saying "damn".

Maybe I'm mishearing it, but when Homer Simpson says it I hear
"dough" -- no pause or caesura at all.

How does Homer's pronunciation, specifically, sound to others?

There's no pause. It's different from "dough", though -- it's in the
vowel.

Monophthongized and glottalized?

dough: [doU]
doh: [do?]

See, I'd say dough was [d@U] and d'oh was [doU].

www.wordreference.com agrees with me on dough, although it seems not all
AmE speakers do this.

Areff
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:00 am Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

Stan Brown wrote:

Quote:

trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
It's not pronounced like "doe" or "dough". It's pronounced with a break:
"d---oh" because it is someone stopping themselves from saying "damn".

Maybe I'm mishearing it, but when Homer Simpson says it I hear
"dough" -- no pause or caesura at all.

How does Homer's pronunciation, specifically, sound to others?

There's no pause. It's different from "dough", though -- it's in the
vowel.

--
Steny '08!

Ben Zimmer
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:01 am Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

Areff wrote:

Quote:

Stan Brown wrote:
trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
It's not pronounced like "doe" or "dough". It's pronounced with a break:
"d---oh" because it is someone stopping themselves from saying "damn".

Maybe I'm mishearing it, but when Homer Simpson says it I hear
"dough" -- no pause or caesura at all.

How does Homer's pronunciation, specifically, sound to others?

There's no pause. It's different from "dough", though -- it's in the
vowel.

Monophthongized and glottalized?

dough: [doU]
doh: [do?]

Stan Brown
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:02 am Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in alt.usage.english:

Quote:

Yes, here's some info from David Wilton's Word Origins site:
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordord.htm#doh

The correct URL is
http://www.wordorigins.org/wordord.htm#Doh
The part after the # mark is case sensitive.

Thanks for the site, by the way. Looks like the online cousin to my
/Brewer's Phrase and Fable/.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
"And if you're afraid of butter, which many people are nowa-
days, (long pause) you just put in cream." --Julia Child

Raymond S. Wise
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

"Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3053flF2q8b1oU1@uni-berlin.de...

Quote:

"Ben Zimmer" <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:419D4EAB.A798E220@midway.uchicago.edu...
Areff wrote:

Stan Brown wrote:
trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) writes:
It's not pronounced like "doe" or "dough". It's pronounced with a
break:
"d---oh" because it is someone stopping themselves from saying
"damn".

Maybe I'm mishearing it, but when Homer Simpson says it I hear
"dough" -- no pause or caesura at all.

How does Homer's pronunciation, specifically, sound to others?

There's no pause. It's different from "dough", though -- it's in the
vowel.

Monophthongized and glottalized?

dough: [doU]
doh: [do?]

See, I'd say dough was [d@U] and d'oh was [doU].

www.wordreference.com agrees with me on dough, although it seems not all
AmE speakers do this.

In current dictionaries by the Oxford University Press, the RP "long 'o'" is
consistently represented by /@U/ while the American "long 'o'" is
consistently represented by /oU/. An example could be seen in the entry for
"auteur," which was recently presented as the OED Word of the Day. One
British variant was presented as /@U't@:/ (the other variant being /O:'t@:/)
while the American version was presented as /oU't@r/.

As I see it, "D'oh!" differs from "Dough!" (which one can imagine Homer
might have occasion to shout some time or other, and which would be the one
pronounced /doU/) in both the consonant and the vowel.

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

R H Draney
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

Raymond S. Wise filted:

Quote:

As I see it, "D'oh!" differs from "Dough!" (which one can imagine Homer
might have occasion to shout some time or other, and which would be the one
pronounced /doU/)

....he probably *has* shouted it at some point...followed by "-nuts"....r

John Holmes
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: boars [WAS: department of redundancy department]

Mickwick wrote:

Quote:

Here, for example, are 106 images of pigs:

http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/47I212/

Wonderful! I like the boar with the sore head, labelled "A man watches a
pig eating a cray-fish to cure its headache".

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus those of alt.usage.english
at tpg dot com dot au

Dylan Nicholson
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:02 am Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:HZCdnWgKIZfvFwDcRVn-tA@gbronline.com...

Quote:

"Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3053flF2q8b1oU1@uni-berlin.de...

See, I'd say dough was [d@U] and d'oh was [doU].

www.wordreference.com agrees with me on dough, although it seems not all
AmE speakers do this.

In current dictionaries by the Oxford University Press, the RP "long 'o'" is
consistently represented by /@U/ while the American "long 'o'" is
consistently represented by /oU/.

I'm curious. If I try to say what I think it meant by /oU/, it doesn't sound
right
at all, even as an imitation of an American accent.
But which 'o' is that anyway - the true pure o as in the Spanish "dos", or
the AmE "ah"-style o in bother?
If I try to pronounce a diphthong starting with with the "do-" part of "dos"
and going to /U/, it sounds like Homer's "d'oh".
If I try it with what I think of as an AmE 'o' (as in 'dot'), it sounds sort
of like "dow" to rhyme with "cow". It certainly doesn't sound anything like
"dough".

Donna Richoux
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars]

"John Holmes" <see sig> wrote:

Quote:

Mickwick wrote:

Here, for example, are 106 images of pigs:

http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/47I212/

Wonderful! I like the boar with the sore head, labelled "A man watches a
pig eating a cray-fish to cure its headache".

My favorite is another page Mickwick recommended:

http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/85/

Gazing at the stars in the distant sky, the
astronomer does not notice the pit in front of him
and falls into it
In eos, qui, proximioribus spretis, remotiora sequuntur

So much packed into one sentence.

I think, though, that the artist lost the idea of falling -- the guy
looks rather balanced. Maybe he's climbing out afterwards.

I wish there was a Latin babelfish. I can't tie all those words to all
those words.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Ben Zimmer
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars]

Donna Richoux wrote:

Quote:

"John Holmes" <see sig> wrote:

Mickwick wrote:

Here, for example, are 106 images of pigs:

http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/47I212/

Wonderful! I like the boar with the sore head, labelled "A man watches a
pig eating a cray-fish to cure its headache".

My favorite is another page Mickwick recommended:

http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/85/

Gazing at the stars in the distant sky, the
astronomer does not notice the pit in front of him
and falls into it
In eos, qui, proximioribus spretis, remotiora sequuntur

So much packed into one sentence.

Here's another good one (from the Dutch History Bible, c. 1430):

http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/showillu?id=3583

Astyages' wife and mother insult the Persians by
showing their naked bottoms.

Raymond S. Wise
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

"Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:419e5f64$0$31870$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

Quote:

"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:HZCdnWgKIZfvFwDcRVn-tA@gbronline.com...
"Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3053flF2q8b1oU1@uni-berlin.de...

See, I'd say dough was [d@U] and d'oh was [doU].

www.wordreference.com agrees with me on dough, although it seems not
all
AmE speakers do this.

In current dictionaries by the Oxford University Press, the RP "long
'o'" is
consistently represented by /@U/ while the American "long 'o'" is
consistently represented by /oU/.

I'm curious. If I try to say what I think it meant by /oU/, it doesn't
sound
right
at all, even as an imitation of an American accent.
But which 'o' is that anyway - the true pure o as in the Spanish "dos", or
the AmE "ah"-style o in bother?
If I try to pronounce a diphthong starting with with the "do-" part of
"dos"
and going to /U/, it sounds like Homer's "d'oh".
If I try it with what I think of as an AmE 'o' (as in 'dot'), it sounds
sort
of like "dow" to rhyme with "cow". It certainly doesn't sound anything
like
"dough".

The "o" in question is the vowel of Spanish "dos" or French "eau," not the
"o" in "dot." It has long been used in IPA (and in ASCII IPA, which is what
I'm using here) to represent the first vowel of the American English version
of the diphthong traditionally called "long 'o.'" Newer entries in the
online OED use it when representing American English pronunciation. To take
an example that was an OED Word of the Day a while back, and which is
labeled "NEW EDITION: draft entry Dec. 2002," "montero," a word borrowed
from Spanish, is represented as having /@U/ for the final vowel in the
British pronunciation, /oU/ as the final vowel in the American
pronunciation.

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Raymond S. Wise
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: Re: D'oh (Re: department of redundancy department)

"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:Bu2dnaHTFNsK8gPcRVn-pw@gbronline.com...

Quote:

"Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:419e5f64$0$31870$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:HZCdnWgKIZfvFwDcRVn-tA@gbronline.com...
"Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3053flF2q8b1oU1@uni-berlin.de...

See, I'd say dough was [d@U] and d'oh was [doU].

www.wordreference.com agrees with me on dough, although it seems not
all
AmE speakers do this.

In current dictionaries by the Oxford University Press, the RP "long
'o'" is
consistently represented by /@U/ while the American "long 'o'" is
consistently represented by /oU/.

I'm curious. If I try to say what I think it meant by /oU/, it doesn't
sound
right
at all, even as an imitation of an American accent.
But which 'o' is that anyway - the true pure o as in the Spanish "dos",
or
the AmE "ah"-style o in bother?
If I try to pronounce a diphthong starting with with the "do-" part of
"dos"
and going to /U/, it sounds like Homer's "d'oh".
If I try it with what I think of as an AmE 'o' (as in 'dot'), it sounds
sort
of like "dow" to rhyme with "cow". It certainly doesn't sound anything
like
"dough".

The "o" in question is the vowel of Spanish "dos" or French "eau," not the
"o" in "dot." It has long been used in IPA (and in ASCII IPA, which is
what
I'm using here) to represent the first vowel of the American English
version
of the diphthong traditionally called "long 'o.'" Newer entries in the
online OED use it when representing American English pronunciation. To
take
an example that was an OED Word of the Day a while back, and which is
labeled "NEW EDITION: draft entry Dec. 2002," "montero," a word borrowed
from Spanish, is represented as having /@U/ for the final vowel in the

It's taken from Spanish, true, but I should have looked closer at the
etymology:

[quote]

[< Spanish
_montera_ MONTERA _n.,_ with alteration of the ending, prob. after earlier
loans of Spanish words in _-ero_ -
EER.
In forms, remodelled after -EER.]

[end quote]

Quote:

British pronunciation, /oU/ as the final vowel in the American
pronunciation.

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

J. W. Love
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars]

Donna quoted & wrote:

Quote:

Gazing at the stars in the distant sky, the
astronomer does not notice the pit in front of him
and falls into it
In eos, qui, proximioribus spretis, remotiora sequuntur
So much packed into one sentence. . . .
I wish there was a Latin babelfish. I can't tie all those words
to all those words.

As you say, it's packed: 'Into those which, the nearer ones having been
spurned, the farther ones follow.' Or so it seems. Unpack it as you like!

Mike Lyle
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars]

Donna Richoux wrote:
[...]

Quote:

My favorite is another page Mickwick recommended:

http://www.mnemosyne.org/mia/iconclass/85/

Gazing at the stars in the distant sky, the
astronomer does not notice the pit in front of him
and falls into it
In eos, qui, proximioribus spretis, remotiora sequuntur

So much packed into one sentence.

I think, though, that the artist lost the idea of falling -- the
guy
looks rather balanced. Maybe he's climbing out afterwards.

I wish there was a Latin babelfish. I can't tie all those words to
all
those words.

Nor will you, as they aren't all there. I know the story, of course,
but don't recognize the quotation; all it says, though, is "Against
[or maybe "Concerning"] those who, disdaining the nearer, pursue more
distant things".

Mike.

Paul Wolff
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:04 am Post subject: Re: The Heedless Astronomer [WAS: boars]

In message <1gnilzh.5icseb13hihcfN%trio@euronet.nl>, Donna Richoux
<trio@euronet.nl> writes

Quote:

Nor I. If I try to translate I get:

Into them [masculine not neuter, so who are we talking about?], [those]
who, spurning the nearer, follow the more distant.

Pitiful (translation and verdict in one shot). Do we have a Latin
scholar to hand? How those Romans ever communicated, talking tags all
day, is a mystery. "Pass the salem, dear." "O tempora! O mores!"
--
Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

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