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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:06 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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Mickwick wrote:
| Quote: |
George Matsell, _Vocabulum_, 1859: A rounder is
One who hangs around faro-banks but does not play. In other
words, a loafer, a man who travels on his shape, and is
supported by a woman, but does not receive enough money to
enable him to play faro. Gamblers call such men rounders,
outsiders, loafers.
Quoted in Eric Partridge's _Dictionary of the Underworld_.
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Hmm, well that's quite different from the sense of the term in the 1998
movie "Rounders". There it clearly meant a hustler/shark in the world
of high-stakes poker. In the movie it's explained that a "rounder" is
so called because he makes the "rounds" of the poker rooms.
From rec.gambling.poker, quoting the poker guru Doyle Brunson:
| Quote: | "ROUNDER
"A very good Professional Poker Player who makes the "Rounds" of
various games. However, a *Rounder* is a lower class of player
than a *Gambler*."
(SUPER/SYSTEM, p. 545)
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More discussion of the term in this thread:
http://groups.google.com/groups?th=2921a5902890df69
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:06 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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In article <DFZZsJNXUQlBFwWz@shropshire.plus.com>, Mickwick at
mickwick@use.reply.to exposited:
| Quote: | In alt.usage.english, Raymond S. Wise quoted:
[...]
G---- had made himself conspicuous as a _rounder,_ . . .
and occupied much of his time in threatening employes
of the various railroad companies.
_Philadelphia Times,_ 1886.
A very large proportion of the inmates [of the work-
house on Blackwell's Island] are "old _rounders_" who re-
turn to the Island again and again.
_Christian Union,_ Aug. 25, 1887.
During our civil war the regiments which were com-
posed of plug-uglies, thugs, and midnight _rounders,_ with
noses laid over to one side as evidence of their prowess
in bar-room mills and paving-stone riots, were generally
cringing cowards in battle. _The Century,_ XXXVI. 249.
George Matsell, _Vocabulum_, 1859: A rounder is
One who hangs around faro-banks but does not play. In other
words, a loafer, a man who travels on his shape, and is
supported by a woman, but does not receive enough money to
enable him to play faro. Gamblers call such men rounders,
outsiders, loafers.
Quoted in Eric Partridge's _Dictionary of the Underworld_.
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I've read there was a lot of gambling up in Alaska during those
days but I didn't realize they named a town after a game.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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The Rounder
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:02 am
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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"John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote in message news:<cmu9lj$4e4$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
| Quote: | Jim Ward wrote:
Does anyone know why a rounder is a dissolute person? From being a
bad all-rounder? Makes the rounds, like a pub-crawler?
OED says someone who 'makes the rounds' of the prison, workhouse and
saloon - a habitual criminal, drunkard or loafer.
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I feel I should chime in. I've always knows "rounder" to mean a card
player. Someone who makes their living making their rounds playing
cards. I've gone as far as putting it on my license plates, and all of
my screen names online. Hopefully I haven't been insulting myself this
entire time.
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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In alt.usage.english, Ben Zimmer wrote:
| Quote: | Mickwick wrote:
One who hangs around faro-banks but does not play.
Hmm, well that's quite different from the sense of the term in the 1998
movie "Rounders". There it clearly meant a hustler/shark in the world
of high-stakes poker. In the movie it's explained that a "rounder" is
so called because he makes the "rounds" of the poker rooms.
|
[...]
I suppose the 'hanging around', 'doing the rounds' and 'going round and
round' possibilities make it ripe for so many uses that a contradictory
one was inevitable.
And the faro loafer meaning has been obsolete for quite a while. _A
Dictionary of the Underworld_ says that it had morphed into 'one who
hangs around' in a more general sense by 1903. In about 1910, this
morphed again to become 'Any underworld character, but usually one old
and of wide acquaintance'.
Other meanings given therein:
'A vehicle on four wheels (not a waggon [Hi, Harvey!]): English: 1863'.
A police informer, English, 1880, from the verb to round = to inform.
'Man habitué of brothels - he goes the rounds' - _Yankee Slang_, 1932.
'An habitual criminal, esp. one who is often in jail', from about 1920.
'Small-time gangstes [sic; the A and second S italicised, which is
odd]', Canadian, from about 1940.
There are a lot of other 'round' words. For instance, 'Roundhead' was
tramps' slang for a Swede; 'rounds' was 'mostly tramps'' slang for
trousers (from the rhyming slang 'round-the-houses'); '(a)round the
horn' meant 'A trip around the circuit of city police stations for the
purpose of being identified by the victims'; and the adjective 'round'
meant 'Honest, not engaged in crime', _The Slang Dictionary_, 1859.
Incidentally, when, in the early part of the nineteenth century, some
low-life said of some other low-life, 'He has been voting for the
Alderman', the low-life of the first part meant that the low-life of the
second part was drunk. After Alderman Lushington, a London brewer.
While googling for the identity of Alderman Lushington, I came across
this enormous list of drunken words:
http://freaky_freya.tripod.com/Drunktionary/A-B.html
I hope it proves useful to all those in AUE who occasionally get
nimptopsical (one of 227 synonyms listed by Benjamin Franklin).
--
Mickwick |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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In alt.usage.english, don groves wrote:
| Quote: | I've read there was a lot of gambling up in Alaska during those
days but I didn't realize they named a town after a game.
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Hey, they named an entire state after Texas Hold 'Em.
--
Mickwick |
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Ben Zimmer
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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Mickwick wrote:
| Quote: |
Incidentally, when, in the early part of the nineteenth century, some
low-life said of some other low-life, 'He has been voting for the
Alderman', the low-life of the first part meant that the low-life of the
second part was drunk. After Alderman Lushington, a London brewer.
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"Alderman Lushington" was a title bestowed on the member of a drinking
club, not an actual person's name. Here's how the OED explains it:
Punning use of the surname Lushington, with allusion to LUSH n.2
The 'City of Lushington' was the name of a convivial society
(consisting chiefly of actors) which met at the Harp Tavern,
Russell Street, until about 1895. It had a 'Lord Mayor' and four
'aldermen', presiding over 'wards' called Juniper, Poverty,
Lunacy, and Suicide. On the admission of a new member, the 'Lord
Mayor' (of late years at least) harangued him on the evils of
excess in drink. The 'City' claimed to have existed for 150
years; if this claim be well-founded, the existence of LUSH n.2
will be authenticated for a date considerably earlier than that
of our first quot. Our information is from 'Sir' B. Davies, the
last 'Lord Mayor of Lushington'.
Here are the earliest cites for "Lushington":
1823 'JON BEE' Dict. Turf s.v. Lush, 'Lushington' or 'dealing
with Lushington', taking too much drink.
1823 EGAN Grose's Dict. Vulgar Tongue, s.v. Lush, Speaking of a
person who is drunk they say, Alderman Lushington is concerned,
or, he has been voting for the Alderman.
1826 The Fancy I. 31 He is reported not to take sufficient care
of himself: Lushington is evidently his master. |
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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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In article <v2ZigNGXJhlBFwgn@shropshire.plus.com>, Mickwick at
mickwick@use.reply.to exposited:
| Quote: | In alt.usage.english, don groves wrote:
I've read there was a lot of gambling up in Alaska during those
days but I didn't realize they named a town after a game.
Hey, they named an entire state after Texas Hold 'Em.
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There's a state named Hold'em? Used to an actor by that name but
never heard of a state.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
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Mickwick
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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In alt.usage.english, Ben Zimmer wrote:
| Quote: | "Alderman Lushington" was a title bestowed on the member of a drinking
club, not an actual person's name. Here's how the OED explains it:
Punning use of the surname Lushington, with allusion to LUSH n.2
The 'City of Lushington' was the name of a convivial society
(consisting chiefly of actors) which met at the Harp Tavern,
Russell Street, until about 1895. It had a 'Lord Mayor' and four
'aldermen', presiding over 'wards' called Juniper, Poverty,
Lunacy, and Suicide. On the admission of a new member, the 'Lord
Mayor' (of late years at least) harangued him on the evils of
excess in drink.
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[...]
That's more like it! Much more interesting than 'a London brewer'. I
particularly like the Juniper, Poverty etc. and the lectures on the
evils of drink - this was presumably an up-sticking of two fingers at
Hogarth and other pussy-footers.
An offshoot of the City of Lushington became the Royal Antediluvian
Order of Buffaloes. The City was at first open to anyone connected with
the theatre but meetings became too crowded and stagehands and other
lesser beings were excluded. The latter responded by setting up their
own convivial society (The Buffs), from which actors were excluded. They
too met at the Harp Tavern, but presumably on different nights.
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/buffaloes.html
http://themasonictrowel.com/Links/non_masonic_organizations.htm
--
Mickwick |
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Joe Fineman
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:01 pm
Post subject: Re: rounder |
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Mickwick <mickwick@use.reply.to> writes:
They missed "hokee-mut" (presumably from some Indian language), used
by Kipling in "The Shut-Eye Sentry".
--
--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net
||: Corporations are pieces of government that got away.  | |
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