Alessandra40
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:23 pm
Post subject: info on grad phd studies in France |
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|
Hi, Iīm interested in doing a PhD in France.
From what Iīve read, a student does a bac = 4 years, then 2 yrs
licence, then 2 yrs DEA, then 3 yrs Phd? Is this right? So if you
finish your bac at 22, you will get your PhD at 29?
I have a Masters, so I imagine I would need to do a DEA first, then
the Phd.
I havenīt understood exactly how a monitorat works, can any PhD
student apply?Are there very few Monitorats offered or is it fairly
common? Can you get a monitorat if you are in the DEA level? Anyone
who knows how a grad assistantship in the US works - how is a
monitorat different?
Thanks for any info,
Alessandra
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Jaap Weel
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:34 am
Post subject: Re: info on grad phd studies in France |
|
|
morena@keromail.com (Alessandra40) writes:
| Quote: | Hi, Iīm interested in doing a PhD in France.
From what Iīve read, a student does a bac = 4 years, then 2 yrs
licence, then 2 yrs DEA, then 3 yrs Phd? Is this right? So if you
finish your bac at 22, you will get your PhD at 29?
|
That is not in fact exactly right, but I don't blame you. The French
education system is somewhat baffling, and you get a lot of degrees
along the way. I'm assuming you are currently in college in the US, so
I'll compare it to the US system.
Also, anyone who knows better, please correct me. I am not French, I
also just figured this out while researching the option of grad school
there.
***** FRENCH EDUCATION BEFORE THE TREATY OF BOLOGNA *****
1. "college" = US grades 5-8; middle school
--------------------------------------------------
2. "lycee" = US grades 9-12; high school
The _diploma_ you get at a "lycee" is called a "baccalaureat" or
"bac". This has nothing to do with American usage "baccalaureate" for
"Bachelor's degree". A bac gives you enough advanced credits to skip
the freshman year at most American colleges. Thus, the first year of
a French university corresponds to the American sophomore (2nd) year.
--------------------------------------------------
3. "DEUG = Diplome d'Etudes Universitaires Generales" = degree awarded
after the eqvt of sophomore (1st) & junior (2nd) year of college
A DEUG is quite general; major designations are broad ("natural
sciences" and such).
--------------------------------------------------
4. "licence" = degree awarded after senior (3rd) year of college
A license is awarded in a more specific field (say "physics"), and
equivalent to British B.Sc or B.A., and to a US B.S. or B.A. (*in*
*my* *opinion*, more later)
--------------------------------------------------
5. "maitrise" = degree awarded after one year of graduate work
A maitrise involves a thesis. It is very common for French students to
take, and does not require an interest in further graduate work.
--------------------------------------------------
6. "diplome d'etudes approfondies" = degree awarded after two years of
graduate work
A DEA is like a Master's degree. It involves a (2nd) thesis. If you
want to go on to a doctorate, your DEA advisor would be the obvious
choice. DEA programs that do not focus on preparing you to do a PhD
are often called DESS or something else starting with DE.
--------------------------------------------------
7. "doctorat" = PhD
Once you have a DEA, you can go on to do a PhD. This does not usually
involve any coursework or petty requirements, but focuses on doing
original research and writing a dissertation.
***** THE TREATY OF BOLOGNA *****
In the treaty of Bologna, many European countries decided to switch to
a common degree model, adopting the degrees of Bachelor, Master and
Doctor. For the French, this gives the following mapping:
DEUG (2 yrs) )
) ==> Bachelor (3yr)
licence (1yr) )
maitrise (1yr) )
) ==> Master (2yr)
DEA/DESS (1yr) )
doctorat ==> Doctor (>4 yr)
The awesome thing about the Bologna model is that it is being adopted
all over Europe, and that it looks like the three degrees are actually
roughly the same no matter what country you got them in.
***** A NICE TWIST OF NAPOLEONTIC BUREAUCRACY *****
The French are fairly bureaucratically minded. They count the number
of years you went to school after high school. Thus, while the
post-Bologna Continental Bachelor's degree, as well as the British
Bachelor's degree, is the old "licence", an _American_ Bachelor's
degree, because it takes an extra year, arguably to cover up for lower
standards of secondary education, counts as a "maitrise" in the old
system, or the first year of a Master's program in the new,
post-Bologna system. Thus, you can directly go to the DEA or 2nd year
of Master's. Whether this is reasonable or not, and that of course
depends on what degree you got and where and what degree you will be
doing and where, I have the impression that this is the way it works.
You say you have a Master's degree. I assume that means you have spent
5, or even 6 years studying after high school. Thus, you should be
eligible for starting directly as a PhD student. You may elect to do a
DEA or the second year of a new-style Master's, but formally I don't
think you have to. The reason I say you may elect to do so is that to
get accepted as a PhD (doctorat) student you need to have specific
plans with a specific prof. That is not the case for any of the other
degrees. If it's hard finding a prof willing to take you now, you can
do what the French do: go for a DEA and get to know potential advisors
along the way.
***
| Quote: | I havenīt understood exactly how a monitorat works, can any PhD
student apply?Are there very few Monitorats offered or is it fairly
common? Can you get a monitorat if you are in the DEA level? Anyone
who knows how a grad assistantship in the US works - how is a
monitorat different?
|
As far as money goes, tuition fees depend on exactly which of the many
degrees you're going for, but never exceed a few hundred Euros. Of
course, you also want to be able to live. Unlike in some northern
European countries, but like in the US, there is a complicated
patchwork of grants and assistantships, including private and
government agencies as well as the departments themselves; I suggest
that you contact the departments about this, they probably know
best. A "monitorat" is a _teaching_ assistantship. Also, check with
your current university's fellowships and foreign exchange offices
about grants available specifically to international students.
Lastly, I want to repeat that I do _not_ live in France, and am in
much the same position as you, trying to figure things out. Oh
yeah. You should also look at sciencemag.org . Just search for
"France". Many good articles.
/jaap
> |
|
Stephane Marchesin
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:11 am
Post subject: Re: info on grad phd studies in France |
|
|
Jaap Weel wrote:
| Quote: | morena@keromail.com (Alessandra40) writes:
Hi, Iīm interested in doing a PhD in France.
From what Iīve read, a student does a bac = 4 years, then 2 yrs
licence, then 2 yrs DEA, then 3 yrs Phd? Is this right? So if you
finish your bac at 22, you will get your PhD at 29?
That is not in fact exactly right, but I don't blame you. The French
education system is somewhat baffling, and you get a lot of degrees
along the way. I'm assuming you are currently in college in the US, so
I'll compare it to the US system.
Also, anyone who knows better, please correct me. I am not French, I
also just figured this out while researching the option of grad school
there.
|
This is a fairly accurate description, I'll just comment on some points.
| Quote: |
***** FRENCH EDUCATION BEFORE THE TREATY OF BOLOGNA *****
1. "college" = US grades 5-8; middle school
--------------------------------------------------
2. "lycee" = US grades 9-12; high school
The _diploma_ you get at a "lycee" is called a "baccalaureat" or
"bac". This has nothing to do with American usage "baccalaureate" for
"Bachelor's degree". A bac gives you enough advanced credits to skip
the freshman year at most American colleges. Thus, the first year of
a French university corresponds to the American sophomore (2nd) year.
--------------------------------------------------
3. "DEUG = Diplome d'Etudes Universitaires Generales" = degree awarded
after the eqvt of sophomore (1st) & junior (2nd) year of college
A DEUG is quite general; major designations are broad ("natural
sciences" and such).
--------------------------------------------------
4. "licence" = degree awarded after senior (3rd) year of college
A license is awarded in a more specific field (say "physics"), and
equivalent to British B.Sc or B.A., and to a US B.S. or B.A. (*in*
*my* *opinion*, more later)
--------------------------------------------------
5. "maitrise" = degree awarded after one year of graduate work
A maitrise involves a thesis. It is very common for French students to
take, and does not require an interest in further graduate work.
--------------------------------------------------
6. "diplome d'etudes approfondies" = degree awarded after two years of
graduate work
A DEA is like a Master's degree. It involves a (2nd) thesis. If you
want to go on to a doctorate, your DEA advisor would be the obvious
choice. DEA programs that do not focus on preparing you to do a PhD
are often called DESS or something else starting with DE.
--------------------------------------------------
7. "doctorat" = PhD
Once you have a DEA, you can go on to do a PhD. This does not usually
involve any coursework or petty requirements, but focuses on doing
original research and writing a dissertation.
|
The amount of courses you have to follow during your phd depends on
which "ecole doctorale" (grad school) you end up in. Some require you to
take some courses, some others let you choose a given amount of courses
within other DEA's, some others require nothing. Anyway, this doesn't
amount to a big number of hours.
| Quote: |
***** THE TREATY OF BOLOGNA *****
In the treaty of Bologna, many European countries decided to switch to
a common degree model, adopting the degrees of Bachelor, Master and
Doctor. For the French, this gives the following mapping:
DEUG (2 yrs) )
) ==> Bachelor (3yr)
licence (1yr) )
maitrise (1yr) )
) ==> Master (2yr)
DEA/DESS (1yr) )
doctorat ==> Doctor (>4 yr)
The awesome thing about the Bologna model is that it is being adopted
all over Europe, and that it looks like the three degrees are actually
roughly the same no matter what country you got them in.
|
Yes, that's even the main purpose of this. Btw, in France, this is
commonly reffered to as "LMD" (Licence-Master-Doctorat).
| Quote: |
***** A NICE TWIST OF NAPOLEONTIC BUREAUCRACY *****
The French are fairly bureaucratically minded. They count the number
of years you went to school after high school. Thus, while the
post-Bologna Continental Bachelor's degree, as well as the British
Bachelor's degree, is the old "licence", an _American_ Bachelor's
degree, because it takes an extra year, arguably to cover up for lower
standards of secondary education, counts as a "maitrise" in the old
system, or the first year of a Master's program in the new,
post-Bologna system. Thus, you can directly go to the DEA or 2nd year
of Master's. Whether this is reasonable or not, and that of course
depends on what degree you got and where and what degree you will be
doing and where, I have the impression that this is the way it works.
You say you have a Master's degree. I assume that means you have spent
5, or even 6 years studying after high school. Thus, you should be
eligible for starting directly as a PhD student. You may elect to do a
DEA or the second year of a new-style Master's, but formally I don't
think you have to. The reason I say you may elect to do so is that to
get accepted as a PhD (doctorat) student you need to have specific
plans with a specific prof. That is not the case for any of the other
degrees. If it's hard finding a prof willing to take you now, you can
do what the French do: go for a DEA and get to know potential advisors
along the way.
|
Yes, that's just like with anything else : an advisor will want to know
who he'll be working with for three years. Btw, you'll also want to know
who you'll be working with for three years, that's not something to
choose blindly. It's not too common that candidates come to France
directly for a phd, although it happens.
| Quote: | ***
I havenīt understood exactly how a monitorat works, can any PhD
student apply?Are there very few Monitorats offered or is it fairly
common? Can you get a monitorat if you are in the DEA level? Anyone
who knows how a grad assistantship in the US works - how is a
monitorat different?
As far as money goes, tuition fees depend on exactly which of the many
degrees you're going for, but never exceed a few hundred Euros. Of
course, you also want to be able to live. Unlike in some northern
European countries, but like in the US, there is a complicated
patchwork of grants and assistantships, including private and
government agencies as well as the departments themselves; I suggest
that you contact the departments about this, they probably know
best. A "monitorat" is a _teaching_ assistantship.
|
A monitorat is more than just doing some teaching. You also have to
follow some courses on pedagogy and related stuff (both activities
amount to roughly the same number of hours).
Getting a monitorat or not depends on your results during your DEA (the
available monitorats go to the best DEA students). I have no idea
whether/how this applies to foreign diplomas.
If you don't have a monitorat, you can be a "vacataire". Basically you
just do the teaching part, and have to do more teaching hours than a
monitorat. It probably amounts to a similar amount of hours the full
monitorat takes (so you do about twice the teaching).
Then, there's also the ATER ("attaché temporaire de recherche"). This
means a lot of teaching hours. Thus, you'll more likely get a half-ATER
("demi-ATER"). phd students whose research grant is over after 3 years
can continue their phd using such funding.
Also, you can't make a living of the first two. You make a living of
your research grant ("allocation de recherche"). That one is usually the
key to start a phd : if you have it you're ok. It can come from private
as well as from public money (or a blend of both).
| Quote: | Also, check with
your current university's fellowships and foreign exchange offices
about grants available specifically to international students.
Lastly, I want to repeat that I do _not_ live in France, and am in
much the same position as you, trying to figure things out. Oh
yeah. You should also look at sciencemag.org . Just search for
"France". Many good articles.
/jaap
|
Stephane
|
|
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