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Message |
Thierry
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:45 pm
Post subject: '60s or 60's ? |
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Hi,
I speak French and I have sometimes some difficulties to select the right
word in English.
According Google, if I search for '60s I receive 3.29 millions answers
against 1.9 millions for 60's.
So I suspect '60s to be the correct form.
I ask the question because usually all plurals are written XX's, but in this
case there is a prefix 19..60.
I can solve the question in writting 1960s of course what is correct I
think.
But what are the correct forms (the best) ?
1. In the years 1960s
2. In years 1960s
3. In 1960s
4. In the '60s
5. In the 60's ?
I 'd have a tendency to select forms 1 or 4.
Who can answer ?
Thanks in advance
Thierry
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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On 26 Sep 2004, Thierry wrote
| Quote: | Hi,
I speak French and I have sometimes some difficulties to select
the right word in English.
According Google, if I search for '60s I receive 3.29 millions
answers against 1.9 millions for 60's.
So I suspect '60s to be the correct form.
I ask the question because usually all plurals are written XX's,
but in this case there is a prefix 19..60.
I can solve the question in writting 1960s of course what is
correct I think.
But what are the correct forms (the best) ?
1. In the years 1960s
2. In years 1960s
3. In 1960s
4. In the '60s
5. In the 60's ?
I 'd have a tendency to select forms 1 or 4.
|
Nos 1, 2 and 3 are not idiomatic; "in the 1960s" works, as does "in
the 1960s".
No. 4 is fine -- the apostrophe indicates that "19" has been omitted.
Nno. 5 is often found, but creates a false possessive -- "60" does not
own anything. (That said, a plural possessive can exist: "The 1960s'
belief in building motorways...", and in that case the shortened form
would include two apostophes -- one for the omission, and one for the
possesesive: "The '60s' belief in building motorways...".)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:28 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
| Quote: |
On 26 Sep 2004, Thierry wrote
[snip] |
| Quote: | I ask the question because usually all plurals are written XX's,
but in this case there is a prefix 19..60.
|
No, plurals should *not* be written with apostrophes. The so-called
"greengrocer's apostrophe" is indeed often seen, but is universally
considered erroneous in the standard written language.
| Quote: | I can solve the question in writting 1960s of course what is
correct I think.
|
Yes.
| Quote: |
But what are the correct forms (the best) ?
1. In the years 1960s
2. In years 1960s
3. In 1960s
4. In the '60s
5. In the 60's ?
I 'd have a tendency to select forms 1 or 4.
Nos 1, 2 and 3 are not idiomatic; "in the 1960s" works, as does "in
the 1960s".
|
I assume you didn't intend to write the same thing twice: what
alternative did you have in mind? To make the reference to years
explicit, one could say something like "in the decade of the 1960s",
but I can't think of an idiomatic expression using both "years" and a
pluralized decade-number.
| Quote: | No. 4 is fine -- the apostrophe indicates that "19" has been omitted.
The same applies when spelling the decade-number: "in the |
nineteen-sixties" becoming "in the 'sixties" -- although the
apostrophe standing for the century-number is often omitted.
| Quote: | Nno. 5 is often found, but creates a false possessive -- "60" does not
own anything. (That said, a plural possessive can exist: "The 1960s'
belief in building motorways...", and in that case the shortened form
would include two apostophes -- one for the omission, and one for the
possesesive: "The '60s' belief in building motorways...".)
|
I'd avoid abbreviating this possessive, or perhaps recast in a form
with "of", so as not to give the impression of putting "60s" in
single quotes; although when typeset (unlike in plain text) the first
mark would be an apostrophe rather than an opening quote, it would be
easy for a reader to stumble over it.
--
Odysseus
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:33 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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On 26 Sep 2004, Odysseus wrote
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 26 Sep 2004, Thierry wrote
[snip]
I ask the question because usually all plurals are written XX's,
but in this case there is a prefix 19..60.
No, plurals should *not* be written with apostrophes. The
so-called "greengrocer's apostrophe" is indeed often seen, but is
universally considered erroneous in the standard written language.
I can solve the question in writting 1960s of course what is
correct I think.
Yes.
But what are the correct forms (the best) ?
1. In the years 1960s
2. In years 1960s
3. In 1960s
4. In the '60s
5. In the 60's ?
I 'd have a tendency to select forms 1 or 4.
Nos 1, 2 and 3 are not idiomatic; "in the 1960s" works, as does
"in the 1960s".
I assume you didn't intend to write the same thing twice: what
alternative did you have in mind?
|
To be honest, I didn't notice I'd written the same thing twice: I was
just correcting Nos. 1-3, and hadn't noticed that there's only one
idiomatic way of writing all three.
[Note to self: proffread your sutff nxet time, dammit...]
-snip-
| Quote: | Nno. 5 is often found, but creates a false possessive -- "60"
does not own anything. (That said, a plural possessive can
exist: "The 1960s' belief in building motorways...", and in that
case the shortened form would include two apostophes -- one for
the omission, and one for the possesesive: "The '60s' belief in
building motorways...".)
I'd avoid abbreviating this possessive, or perhaps recast in a
form with "of", so as not to give the impression of putting "60s"
in single quotes; although when typeset (unlike in plain text) the
first mark would be an apostrophe rather than an opening quote, it
would be easy for a reader to stumble over it.
|
Oh, I'd agree entirely that "'60s'" is best avoided; I was just noting
that in that (undesirable) form, the two apostrophes would be
appropriate, and would be doing different jobs.
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:08 pm
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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"Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:41573469.3324F022@yahoo-dot.ca...
| Quote: | Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 26 Sep 2004, Thierry wrote
[snip]
I ask the question because usually all plurals are written XX's,
but in this case there is a prefix 19..60.
No, plurals should *not* be written with apostrophes. The so-called
"greengrocer's apostrophe" is indeed often seen, but is universally
considered erroneous in the standard written language.
|
The greengrocer's apostrophe is incorrect, but the apostrophe in "He is in
his 60's" and "I'm buying some CD's" are not examples of the greengrocer's
apostrophe. These are standard uses of the apostrophe, as we have discussed
many times in this group and in alt.usage.english .
The Minneapolis Public Library, by the way, has bins it labels "CD's and
DVD's."
| Quote: |
I can solve the question in writting 1960s of course what is
correct I think.
Yes.
But what are the correct forms (the best) ?
1. In the years 1960s
2. In years 1960s
3. In 1960s
4. In the '60s
5. In the 60's ?
I 'd have a tendency to select forms 1 or 4.
Nos 1, 2 and 3 are not idiomatic; "in the 1960s" works, as does "in
the 1960s".
I assume you didn't intend to write the same thing twice: what
alternative did you have in mind? To make the reference to years
explicit, one could say something like "in the decade of the 1960s",
but I can't think of an idiomatic expression using both "years" and a
pluralized decade-number.
No. 4 is fine -- the apostrophe indicates that "19" has been omitted.
The same applies when spelling the decade-number: "in the
nineteen-sixties" becoming "in the 'sixties" -- although the
apostrophe standing for the century-number is often omitted.
Nno. 5 is often found, but creates a false possessive -- "60" does not
own anything. (That said, a plural possessive can exist: "The 1960s'
belief in building motorways...", and in that case the shortened form
would include two apostophes -- one for the omission, and one for the
possesesive: "The '60s' belief in building motorways...".)
|
[Replying to Harvey Van Sickle]
There is no false possessive in No. 5. That curious argument is used often
enough it but makes no sense.
(While one use of possessives is to indicate ownership, there are other uses
for the possessive which do not involve ownership at all.)
| Quote: |
I'd avoid abbreviating this possessive, or perhaps recast in a form
with "of", so as not to give the impression of putting "60s" in
single quotes; although when typeset (unlike in plain text) the first
mark would be an apostrophe rather than an opening quote, it would be
easy for a reader to stumble over it.
|
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:31 pm
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:C4Sdnf9-QMPHM8rcRVn-uA@gbronline.com...
| Quote: | "Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:41573469.3324F022@yahoo-dot.ca...
Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 26 Sep 2004, Thierry wrote
[snip]
I ask the question because usually all plurals are written XX's,
but in this case there is a prefix 19..60.
No, plurals should *not* be written with apostrophes. The so-called
"greengrocer's apostrophe" is indeed often seen, but is universally
considered erroneous in the standard written language.
The greengrocer's apostrophe is incorrect, but the apostrophe in "He is in
his 60's" and "I'm buying some CD's" are not examples of the greengrocer's
apostrophe. These are standard uses of the apostrophe, as we have
discussed
many times in this group and in alt.usage.english .
The Minneapolis Public Library, by the way, has bins it labels "CD's and
DVD's."
|
The rule in printed BrE now seems to be to avoid the apostrophe as a plural
marker: MPs, CDs and DVDs, etc. This accords with the abandoning of stops
for abbreviations (BBC, PhD, etc), and of almost all punctuation in
addresses and in written-out dates (27 September 2004). An exception is made
for isolated letters: "How many s's in Mississippi?" Since we have no
Académie and few of us think of using rules or usage guides, practice varies
a great deal, especially in private writing, but I think that the newish
principles will eventually become general since they are seen in almost
every business or governmental letter and publication, and are, I believe,
taught in secretarial schools.
On the point at issue, I'd write "in the 1960s" or "in the '60s"; there
seems some merit in distinguishing "the '60s" as an era and "the 60s" as a
decade in one's life (though, as it happens, for my late father they would
have been the same).
Alan Jones |
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Daniel James
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:25 pm
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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In article news:<C4Sdnf9-QMPHM8rcRVn-uA@gbronline.com>, Raymond S. Wise
wrote:
| Quote: | ... the apostrophe in "He is in his 60's" and "I'm buying some CD's"
are not examples of the greengrocer's apostrophe. These are standard
uses of the apostrophe, as we have discussed many times ...
|
You may be right that it's "standard" -- by which I think you mean no more
than that many people do it -- but I don't think we should encourage it.
Both "He is in his 60s" and "I'm buying some CDs" are perfectly clear as
they stand. The addition of an apostrophe to either is unnecessary and
(quite apart from making the sentences visually untidy) might be mistaken
by many budding young greengrocers as indicating a possessive - with
predictable consequences for their written English.
Cheers,
Daniel. |
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Thierry
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:34 pm
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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"Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:WkP5d.93842$U04.2198@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
| Quote: |
"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:C4Sdnf9-QMPHM8rcRVn-uA@gbronline.com...
"Odysseus" <odysseus1479-at@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in message
news:41573469.3324F022@yahoo-dot.ca...
Harvey Van Sickle wrote:
On 26 Sep 2004, Thierry wrote
[snip]
...
On the point at issue, I'd write "in the 1960s" or "in the '60s"; there
seems some merit in distinguishing "the '60s" as an era and "the 60s" as a
decade in one's life (though, as it happens, for my late father they would
have been the same).
|
Thanks to all.
I will thus use "in the '60s" or "in the 1960s" and CDs
That looks fine.
Thierry
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:46 pm
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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"Daniel James" <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote in message
news:VA.000008d0.1ddf6239@nospam.aaisp.org...
| Quote: | In article news:<C4Sdnf9-QMPHM8rcRVn-uA@gbronline.com>, Raymond S. Wise
wrote:
... the apostrophe in "He is in his 60's" and "I'm buying some CD's"
are not examples of the greengrocer's apostrophe. These are standard
uses of the apostrophe, as we have discussed many times ...
You may be right that it's "standard" -- by which I think you mean no more
than that many people do it -- but I don't think we should encourage it.
|
No, it is standard because at one time it was the only accepted way for
educated people to make such plurals and the situation has not changed
sufficiently for it to now be considered nonstandard. As a result, reference
works--which have been quoted quite often here and in alt.usage.english, as
googling will show--still show it to be standard.
| Quote: |
Both "He is in his 60s" and "I'm buying some CDs" are perfectly clear as
they stand. The addition of an apostrophe to either is unnecessary and
(quite apart from making the sentences visually untidy) might be mistaken
by many budding young greengrocers as indicating a possessive - with
predictable consequences for their written English.
|
I do not believe that we should change a perfectly good usage because other
people are ignorant, unless it is a question of life or limb: I approve of
the change from "inflammable" to "flammable," for example, but think the
argument against using the apostrophe in plurals such as those being
discussed to be a silly one.
Besides, if there were any merit to the argument that there the practice can
cause confusion, this use of the apostrophe would never have become a
standard practice in the first place. As I said, at one time using this
practice was mandatory.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:08 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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<Both "He is in his 60s" and "I'm buying some CDs" are perfectly clear
as they stand.
that is not clear to me. Based on a real-life example I had.
do you mean you are buying CDs (compact discs) or do you mean you are
buying CDs (certificates of deposit)? Both are commonly called "CDs' |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:18 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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Besides, if there were any merit to the argument that there the practice
can cause confusion, this use of the apostrophe would never have become
a standard practice in the first place. As I said, at one time using
this practice was mandatory.
I think that was probably because not using the apostrophe in some cases
such as those could and does cause confusion.
(I usually use 60's or 70's or CD's also) |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:33 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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Some people who at the time knew the term CD's was commonly used for
both compact discs and certificates of deposit used it to try and cause
trouble between me and a relative of mine. Since at the time, I only
knew CD's to commonly stand for compact discs and my relative at the
time only knew CD's to commonly stand for certificates of deposit.
this was about a couple of decades ago right after compact discs first
became popular. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:42 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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I'm not saying 60's and 70's is correct or incorrect. However, I
picked up the habit from somewhere, and the most likely place that I
picked it up from is school, so I must have been taught in school that
that was the correct way to write those terms and plurals of acronymns. |
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Alan Jones
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:04 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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"Raymond S. Wise" <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote in message
news:AM-dneJrQ7x23sXcRVn-jA@gbronline.com...
| Quote: | "Daniel James" <wastebasket@nospam.aaisp.org> wrote in message
news:VA.000008d0.1ddf6239@nospam.aaisp.org...
[...]
Both "He is in his 60s" and "I'm buying some CDs" are perfectly clear as
they stand. The addition of an apostrophe to either is unnecessary and
(quite apart from making the sentences visually untidy) might be mistaken
by many budding young greengrocers as indicating a possessive - with
predictable consequences for their written English.
I do not believe that we should change a perfectly good usage because
other
people are ignorant, unless it is a question of life or limb: I approve of
the change from "inflammable" to "flammable," for example, but think the
argument against using the apostrophe in plurals such as those being
discussed to be a silly one.
Besides, if there were any merit to the argument that there the practice
can
cause confusion, this use of the apostrophe would never have become a
standard practice in the first place. As I said, at one time using this
practice was mandatory.
|
If that (to avoid baffling the ignorant) were indeed the argument, I should
agree with you; but more probably the change reflects an aesthetic
preference for simplicity. Long ago, in the printing of his plays, George
Bernard Shaw insisted on "dont" for the customary "don't" and so forth.
Perhaps that will be the next general change in what is after all only in a
trivial sense "punctuation".
Alan Jones |
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Raymond S. Wise
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:33 am
Post subject: Re: '60s or 60's ? |
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<c28k@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:29042-41585EF8-238@storefull-3114.bay.webtv.net...
| Quote: | I'm not saying 60's and 70's is correct or incorrect. However, I
picked up the habit from somewhere, and the most likely place that I
picked it up from is school, so I must have been taught in school that
that was the correct way to write those terms and plurals of acronymns.
|
Yes, that has been discussed before in this newsgroup. Americans of at least
my age (I'm 50) and older were taught that method as the correct way to
write the plurals of numbers, letters, and acronyms.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com |
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