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Odysseus
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:41 pm
Post subject: Re: A restriction in the meaning of 'African American' [Was: |
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meirman wrote:
| Quote: |
Well, I do not know. I should have ended with a question mark, but I
did say "I guess". And it was a guess. I just don't really think
black Black people, or black ink for that matter, are colored by
pigments of all colors, that mix together and look black. There must
be something intrinsically black, and if it's not at the molecular
level, what is the level? With a color tv, one can see the little
red, green, and blue spots, and with the sunday funnies, one can see
the little red, yellow, and blue spots. But not with coal, or black
ink, or black skin. Everything is so complicated (sigh).
The red, green, & blue phosphors in a CRT screen, and the cyan, |
magenta, & yellow dots printed on paper, are just taking advantage of
our colour-preception mechanism to give the illusion of a broad range
of frequencies. The cells in the retina that can detect colour do so
with one of three pigments, each of which absorbs light in one of the
"additive primary colours", red, green, or blue. A graph of their
frequency responses makes curves with a fairly broad 'humps', so the
response to frequencies to one side or another of the peak tapers off
gradually. Yellow light falls in between red and green in the
spectrum, so both types of receptors react moderately strongly to it,
but the blue-sensitive cells don't. So you can be 'fooled' into
seeing yellow where you see red and green lights together, as on your
monitor, or where the blue part of white light is blocked, as by
yellow ink.
An object looks black if it absorbs most of the visible light that
hits it. As has been mentioned, there's almost always some light
reflected; if some frequencies are absorbed less than others we might
describe the colour as "blue-black", "brown-black", &c. The
illumination is important; for example a blue object will look black
in yellow light. But although to appear black a pigment must absorb
(nearly) all visible frequencies, it certainly needn't be a composite
of materials each with a different 'narrowband' absorption.
--
Odysseus
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Jordan Abel
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:26 pm
Post subject: Re: A restriction in the meaning of 'African American' [Was: |
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Raymond S. Wise wrote:
| Quote: | Consider that for many years Crayola crayons gave to a certain
hue of pink the name "flesh." This was based on the noun "flesh" used in the
sense of "skin": Obviously, the skin in question was the skin of white
people.
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The version of the story I heard adds that to remedy this instead of
renaming it they removed it entirely. [semi-verified in that in a
96-color box there is nothing that comes close to passing for white skin
color, though conceivably it could have been a poor match originally.] |
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Donna Richoux
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:56 pm
Post subject: Flesh-colored crayons [WAS: A restriction in the meaning of |
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Jordan Abel <jmabel@purdue.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | Raymond S. Wise wrote:
Consider that for many years Crayola crayons gave to a certain
hue of pink the name "flesh." This was based on the noun "flesh" used in the
sense of "skin": Obviously, the skin in question was the skin of white
people.
The version of the story I heard adds that to remedy this instead of
renaming it they removed it entirely. [semi-verified in that in a
96-color box there is nothing that comes close to passing for white skin
color, though conceivably it could have been a poor match originally.]
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The Crayola people have had a website for quite some time that includes
history of their crayon names and which colors were put into which set.
http://www.crayola.com/colorcensus/history/chronology.cfm
It says about "Flesh":
**Name voluntarily changed to "peach" in 1962,
partially as a result of the U. S. Civil Rights
Movement.
I don't spot Peach among the colors that have been retired.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
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Jordan Abel
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:12 am
Post subject: Re: A restriction in the meaning of 'African American' [Was: |
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Dylan Nicholson wrote:
| Quote: | By this I assume you mean that an object can be black because either
a) its individual atoms/molecules absorb all visible light
b) it's covered by various types of molecules, that collectively absorb all
visible wavelengths of light
But if you think about this, b) can never really happen, because there will
always be some molecules on the surface that directly reflect back light
in some wavelengths,
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Not if all the ones that absorb some wavelengths _transmit_ [not
reflect] all other wavelengths. |
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Jordan Abel
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:13 am
Post subject: Re: Flesh-colored crayons [WAS: A restriction in the meaning |
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Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | Jordan Abel <jmabel@purdue.edu> wrote:
Raymond S. Wise wrote:
Consider that for many years Crayola crayons gave to a certain
hue of pink the name "flesh." This was based on the noun "flesh" used in the
sense of "skin": Obviously, the skin in question was the skin of white
people.
The version of the story I heard adds that to remedy this instead of
renaming it they removed it entirely. [semi-verified in that in a
96-color box there is nothing that comes close to passing for white skin
color, though conceivably it could have been a poor match originally.]
The Crayola people have had a website for quite some time that includes
history of their crayon names and which colors were put into which set.
http://www.crayola.com/colorcensus/history/chronology.cfm
It says about "Flesh":
**Name voluntarily changed to "peach" in 1962,
partially as a result of the U. S. Civil Rights
Movement.
I don't spot Peach among the colors that have been retired.
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Ah - "poor match originally" it is, then. |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:04 am
Post subject: Re: A restriction in the meaning of 'African American' [Was: |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 27 Sep 2004 06:26:34 -0500 Jordan Abel
<jmabel@purdue.edu> posted:
| Quote: | Raymond S. Wise wrote:
Consider that for many years Crayola crayons gave to a certain
hue of pink the name "flesh." This was based on the noun "flesh" used in the
sense of "skin": Obviously, the skin in question was the skin of white
people.
The version of the story I heard adds that to remedy this instead of
renaming it they removed it entirely. [semi-verified in that in a
96-color box there is nothing that comes close to passing for white skin
color, though conceivably it could have been a poor match originally.]
|
It was a good match originally. Not that it matched me. The tops of
my arms are darker than it was and the bottom of my arms are lighter,
iirc. Of course I never owned a set of crayons with more than 8 or 10
colors (I'm not sure there were bigger sets when I was little), but I
saw it somewhere.
It was better than just a version of pink. There was some cream or
peach in it that made it like no other color, and I thought it was
clearly skin color, for some white people at least.
At the time I heard directly, on the radio news probably, that they
did remove it entirely. In a way it's not fair, because standard
brown and maybe tan are, I think (but I'm not good at this) the
color(s?) of some Black people, but now, based on what you say, there
is no good color for any white people. But otoh, in my wildest dreams
when I was little and before I had seen the big set, it never occurred
to me that there would be a flesh color. I was happy with just the
colors of the rainbow, and black, and white. Of course I have no
talent. If I did, maybe I would have wanted more colors.
I just read Donna's quote from the crayola site, and I don't think
what was flesh then would have been renamed peach without changing the
color some. Ray said it was a hue of pink, and I don't know any pink
peaches. I think it was a blend of pink and peach.
And Jordan said nothing in the current box looked like skin. Did you
see peach? If you saw peach and it didn't look like flesh, it wasn't
the same as flesh color.
Aren't the boxes sealed in some way, so I would have to buy a box to
see exactly what color is peach now? I don't even go to such stores
very often, but maybe if I do, I'll look.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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meirman
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:08 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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In alt.english.usage on Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:01:42 +0100 Robin Bignall
<docrobin@ntlworld.com> posted:
| Quote: | On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:38:44 +0100, david56
bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
I would suspect most people under 40 don't know the standard meanings
of chink anymore, and they don't know the offensive meaning of it
either. Somewhat like Joanne had never heard the word Guinea used to
mean an Italian.
But nor had I, ever; as far as I know this usage is entirely unknown
here.
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FTR, wrt Chink, I was talking about the US even, where it certainly
was well known once. And Joanne lives in the US I think.
| Quote: | The first time I heard it (Guinea as a derogatory term for an Italian)
was in 'The Godfather' in 1973. It seems to crop up often in films and
books about organised crime.
|
Maybe Joanne's never seen the movie. I haven't.
s/ meirman If you are emailing me please
say if you are posting the same response.
Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years
Indianapolis, 7 years
Chicago, 6 years
Brooklyn NY 12 years
Baltimore 20 years |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: black |
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On 26 Sep 2004 08:39:14 GMT, Ayaz Ahmed Khan <resilient@myrealbox.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "cljlk" typed:
Since we are on this topic, some people consider "oriental" is offensive also.
But, I am not quite sure referring Asian as "oriental" that is offensive.
What do you think?
I, at least, find it offensive. What's wrong with just `Asian'?
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I'm of the mind that if you choose to be referred to as Asian, and not
as Oriental, then Asian it is. I see no point in arguing terms with
people when it's such a simple thing to go along with their
preferences.
However, I am curious. What is there about "Oriental" that you find
offensive? If it is offensive to you, how offensive do you rate it?
Somewhat? Mildly? Greatly? Is there some historical application that
has made Oriental offensive to some?
Keep in mind that I'm not asking you to defend your objection since
I'm quite willing to use whatever term you feel is most appropriate.
I'm just curious about the cause of the reaction. |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:48 pm
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:02:54 +0100, david56
<bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Richard Yates typed thus:
In his talk, he twice said something like
"there is now a chink in the defences which they used to put around
them". To my UK English ears, this is unremarkable, but I have
learned here that the word "chink" is essentially unusable in some
parts, and the connection with Vietnam amused me.
Two meanings: "Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for person of
Chinese birth or descent" and "A narrow opening, such as a crack or
fissure".
The announcer was apparently using the second meaning but risked both being
misunderstood and heard as making an offensive pun.
Bit that was my point - he didn't risk this in my opinion in the UK,
as although "chink" is known as a derogatory term for a Chinese
person, nobody would suspect that he was using the word in this way.
I would not have noticed it myself except for the slating which
"chink" has got here over the years. To use it in its derogatory
sense here you would have to be very clearly talking about Chinese
people.
Usage such as "open the door a chink" is unremarkable and bears no
danger of being thought racist.
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The phrase "There's a chink in his armor" used to be acceptable and
used. I suppose it's a phrase that is now avoided. |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:56 pm
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:48:41 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | The phrase "There's a chink in his armor" used to be acceptable and
used. I suppose it's a phrase that is now avoided.
|
I'm reminded of the fellow who was all but executed after using the
word "niggardly" in a speech.
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 11:58 pm
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:13:28 +0100, david56
<bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Odysseus typed thus:
"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bc09dfd2ec5f1ef98a854@news.individual.net...
I'm not aware of "oriental" being offensive in the UK.
As I said in another post, the *Compact Oxford English Dictionary*
characterizes it as "often offensive." *The Oxford-Hachette French
Dictionary,* which is a corpus-based dictionary (that is, based upon actual
usage), identifies it as "souvent péj" ( = "often pejorative" ).
Do they say the same of both the noun and the adjective, or does it
apply only to the noun?
Ah, I hadn't even considered a noun. Many nounified adjectives
relating to types of people sound somewhat derogatory. A gay, a
black, a female, an Asian, an oriental. All these grate slightly.
But we don't tend to say "an oriental", so it doesn't sound
particularly offensive.
|
You don't use "You want to order oriental tonight?" when referring to
ordering take-away Chinese food? It's a bit awkward here because most
of our "Chinese" take-away restaurants are run by people that are not
Chinese at all. Most seem to be staffed by Vietnamese. We do have
quite a few Vietnamese restaurants that serve Vietnamese food, but
many of the restaurants that serve the traditional (Americanized)
Chinese food are Vietnamese operated.
Orlando has a very high population of Vietnamese, and a very low
population of Chinese. The only Chinese person that I personally know
owns a restaurant/bakery that specializes in Vietnamese food and
French pastries. He was born in mainland China, but raised in the NYC
area. His wife is Vietnamese and her father started the business. |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:20 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:48:41 -0400, the renowned Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:02:54 +0100, david56
bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Richard Yates typed thus:
In his talk, he twice said something like
"there is now a chink in the defences which they used to put around
them". To my UK English ears, this is unremarkable, but I have
learned here that the word "chink" is essentially unusable in some
parts, and the connection with Vietnam amused me.
Two meanings: "Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for person of
Chinese birth or descent" and "A narrow opening, such as a crack or
fissure".
The announcer was apparently using the second meaning but risked both being
misunderstood and heard as making an offensive pun.
Bit that was my point - he didn't risk this in my opinion in the UK,
as although "chink" is known as a derogatory term for a Chinese
person, nobody would suspect that he was using the word in this way.
I would not have noticed it myself except for the slating which
"chink" has got here over the years. To use it in its derogatory
sense here you would have to be very clearly talking about Chinese
people.
Usage such as "open the door a chink" is unremarkable and bears no
danger of being thought racist.
The phrase "There's a chink in his armor" used to be acceptable and
used. I suppose it's a phrase that is now avoided.
|
If you were discussing the defence capabilities of the PRC, it might
be best to avoid it.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:31 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 03:12:21 -0400, meirman <meirman@invalid.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | Not to say there was only segregation in the South. At one time I
think, but I think it ended by the mid-50's and probably earlier, all
the Black high school students in Indianapolis went to Crispus Attucks
High School. Total segregation may have ended when there were too
many kids for one high school. The lower schools would have been
segregated at the same time the high school was.
|
Any black student in Marion County could attend Crispus Attucks in the
50s when I was a high school student in Indianapolis. Not all did,
though. There were two black students in my class at Broad Ripple
High School, and quite a few black students at Shortridge High School.
Oscar Robertson went to Crispus Attucks the same years that I was at
BRHS. Attucks dominated Indianapolis high school basketball in that
era. Their basketball coach, Ray Crowe, was given the part of the
opposing coach in the championship game in the movie "Hoosiers".
After our high school Senior Prom in 1956, the class had an all-night
party at the Rivera Club on the north side. The Rivera Club was a
private swimming club and "the place to be" in the summer. I never
knew anyone that had a pool at home. We were told that our two black
classmates could attend the function, but would not be allowed in the
pool.
| Quote: | Most blacks still lived in the city, south of 38th street for that matter.
|
Indiana Avenue ran northwest from downtown, and most of the black
population of Indianapolis in those days lived in that area. The area
that is now the IU/PU university complex was once the center of
"colored town". The area west of Meridian Street from about 16th to
30th was another center of black population. We used to sneak in "The
Top Hat" at 30th and Illinois to hear the black jazz musicians play.
I saw Joe Williams there one night and became a life-long fan. Paul
Robeson had an engagement in Indianapolis once, but it was can celled
because they couldn't find a hotel that would accommodate him.
| Quote: | There were only two JHS's, and I'm
sure they took everyone in their respective areas. Senior year in HS,
the elected class VP was black, the secretary was a girl, the
president was a white Cuban, and the treasurer was a Jew. Or
something like that.
|
There were only a few Jewish students in my class at BRHS. I can only
remember two. Most of the Jewish students seemed to be at Shortridge.
I used to caddy during the summers in Indianapolis. Mostly at
Meridian Hills, but sometimes at other courses. There was one country
club that admitted Jews. I think it was Hillcrest, but I may be wrong
on the name. There were no Jewish members at Meridian Hills, or a
least no members with Jewish names.
| Quote: | In that same timeframe, my parents said 'Negro' although 'Black' was
what we (the teenagers) used as the respectful word to offer no offense.
My dying grandmother had a nurse comming to visit weekly and called her
'the colored girl'. I suppose to a 90 year old, a 40 year old,
registered nurse, doctor, etc. is still a girl,
"Negro" or "Colored" were the terms I remember. Strangely, one |
referred to "Negroes" or "The coloreds". A fringe neighborhood where
both black and white families lived was called a "salt and pepper
neighborhood". |
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Martin Ambuhl
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:38 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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Tony Cooper wrote:
| Quote: | There were two black students in my class at Broad Ripple
High School, and quite a few black students at Shortridge High School.
|
Unfortunately, Shortridge seems to be no more. They closed it down
shortly before my father, a Shortridge alumnus, died.
| Quote: | The area west of Meridian Street from about 16th to
30th was another center of black population.
|
This surprises me. My very white (Swiss) and Republican grandfather
lived at 19th and Meridian the whole time he was police chief and later
city councilman. I spent a lot of time there without noticing a large
black population. Perhaps that was not an operational category for me then. |
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Harvey Van Sickle
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:11 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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On 08 Oct 2004, Tony Cooper wrote
| Quote: | Usage such as "open the door a chink" is unremarkable and bears
no danger of being thought racist.
The phrase "There's a chink in his armor" used to be acceptable
and used. I suppose it's a phrase that is now avoided.
|
A pondial thing, I think: as far as I'm aware, "a chink in his
armour/defences" isn't even remotely skunked in the UK.
The same OK-ness would also apply in the UK to "a nip in the air": is
that still usable in the US?
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van) |
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