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don groves
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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In article <4ujdm0da927lokaajiu36cfct527qeo7ll@4ax.com>, Tony
Cooper at tony_cooper213@earthlink.net poured forth...
| Quote: | On 26 Sep 2004 08:39:14 GMT, Ayaz Ahmed Khan <resilient@myrealbox.com
wrote:
"cljlk" typed:
Since we are on this topic, some people consider "oriental" is offensive also.
But, I am not quite sure referring Asian as "oriental" that is offensive.
What do you think?
I, at least, find it offensive. What's wrong with just `Asian'?
I'm of the mind that if you choose to be referred to as Asian, and not
as Oriental, then Asian it is. I see no point in arguing terms with
people when it's such a simple thing to go along with their
preferences.
However, I am curious. What is there about "Oriental" that you find
offensive? If it is offensive to you, how offensive do you rate it?
Somewhat? Mildly? Greatly? Is there some historical application that
has made Oriental offensive to some?
Keep in mind that I'm not asking you to defend your objection since
I'm quite willing to use whatever term you feel is most appropriate.
I'm just curious about the cause of the reaction.
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The term "The Orient" is a West-conceived term referring to the
East, even including what we now call the Middle East, which is
not part of Asia. Cairo, Egypt, has been called "The Jewel of the
Orient". To a true Asian, this certainly could be considered an
improper identifier.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster)
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George
Guest
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:22 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:24:10 -0700, don groves <dgroves@domain.net>
wrote:
| Quote: | In article <4ujdm0da927lokaajiu36cfct527qeo7ll@4ax.com>, Tony
Cooper at tony_cooper213@earthlink.net poured forth...
On 26 Sep 2004 08:39:14 GMT, Ayaz Ahmed Khan <resilient@myrealbox.com
wrote:
"cljlk" typed:
Since we are on this topic, some people consider "oriental" is offensive also.
But, I am not quite sure referring Asian as "oriental" that is offensive.
What do you think?
I, at least, find it offensive. What's wrong with just `Asian'?
I'm of the mind that if you choose to be referred to as Asian, and not
as Oriental, then Asian it is. I see no point in arguing terms with
people when it's such a simple thing to go along with their
preferences.
However, I am curious. What is there about "Oriental" that you find
offensive? If it is offensive to you, how offensive do you rate it?
Somewhat? Mildly? Greatly? Is there some historical application that
has made Oriental offensive to some?
Keep in mind that I'm not asking you to defend your objection since
I'm quite willing to use whatever term you feel is most appropriate.
I'm just curious about the cause of the reaction.
The term "The Orient" is a West-conceived term referring to the
East, even including what we now call the Middle East, which is
not part of Asia. Cairo, Egypt, has been called "The Jewel of the
Orient". To a true Asian, this certainly could be considered an
improper identifier.
|
Maybe in your part of the west, but not in mine. In Britain, 'the
Orient' has traditionally meant the Far East, and Asians came from the
Indian sub-continent. If people from China, Japan, Vietnam and those
far Eastern countries now wish to also be called Asians, then so be
it. I can't recall any of them ever expressing an opinion on the
subject. In Britain, the Chinese and Japanese communities keep
themselves very much to themselves.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England
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Robin Bignall
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:26 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:58:56 -0400, Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:13:28 +0100, david56
bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Odysseus typed thus:
"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bc09dfd2ec5f1ef98a854@news.individual.net...
I'm not aware of "oriental" being offensive in the UK.
As I said in another post, the *Compact Oxford English Dictionary*
characterizes it as "often offensive." *The Oxford-Hachette French
Dictionary,* which is a corpus-based dictionary (that is, based upon actual
usage), identifies it as "souvent péj" ( = "often pejorative" ).
Do they say the same of both the noun and the adjective, or does it
apply only to the noun?
Ah, I hadn't even considered a noun. Many nounified adjectives
relating to types of people sound somewhat derogatory. A gay, a
black, a female, an Asian, an oriental. All these grate slightly.
But we don't tend to say "an oriental", so it doesn't sound
particularly offensive.
You don't use "You want to order oriental tonight?" when referring to
ordering take-away Chinese food? It's a bit awkward here because most
of our "Chinese" take-away restaurants are run by people that are not
Chinese at all. Most seem to be staffed by Vietnamese. We do have
quite a few Vietnamese restaurants that serve Vietnamese food, but
many of the restaurants that serve the traditional (Americanized)
Chinese food are Vietnamese operated.
Orlando has a very high population of Vietnamese, and a very low
population of Chinese. The only Chinese person that I personally know
owns a restaurant/bakery that specializes in Vietnamese food and
French pastries. He was born in mainland China, but raised in the NYC
area. His wife is Vietnamese and her father started the business.
It's pretty much the same situation in France, Tony, where all of the |
'Chinese' restaurants I've visited have actually been run by
Vietnamese. It's not surprising, since Vietnam was once a French
colony, and many of its inhabitants speak French as a second language.
--
wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall
Hertfordshire
England |
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the Omrud
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 4:34 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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Tony Cooper typed thus:
| Quote: | On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:13:28 +0100, david56
bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
Odysseus typed thus:
"Raymond S. Wise" wrote:
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bc09dfd2ec5f1ef98a854@news.individual.net...
I'm not aware of "oriental" being offensive in the UK.
As I said in another post, the *Compact Oxford English Dictionary*
characterizes it as "often offensive." *The Oxford-Hachette French
Dictionary,* which is a corpus-based dictionary (that is, based upon actual
usage), identifies it as "souvent péj" ( = "often pejorative" ).
Do they say the same of both the noun and the adjective, or does it
apply only to the noun?
Ah, I hadn't even considered a noun. Many nounified adjectives
relating to types of people sound somewhat derogatory. A gay, a
black, a female, an Asian, an oriental. All these grate slightly.
But we don't tend to say "an oriental", so it doesn't sound
particularly offensive.
You don't use "You want to order oriental tonight?" when referring to
ordering take-away Chinese food? It's a bit awkward here because most
of our "Chinese" take-away restaurants are run by people that are not
Chinese at all. Most seem to be staffed by Vietnamese. We do have
quite a few Vietnamese restaurants that serve Vietnamese food, but
many of the restaurants that serve the traditional (Americanized)
Chinese food are Vietnamese operated.
|
Nope, it's always "Chinese". UK Chinese restaurants are mostly run
by people from Hong Kong, of whom there are plenty because of the
historical connections. I'm not aware of any Vietnamese restaurants
here, although there are some in France (for similar colonial
reasons). Even Warrington, which is not a very mixed town, has a
number of Chinese residents.
"Oriental" might mean Japanese, although Japanese restaurants are
rare outside London - I know only one in Manchester.
UK Indian restaurants are mostly run by Bengalis, but they are still
"Indian restaurants".
--
David
====replace the first component of address
with the definite article. |
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Spehro Pefhany
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:15 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:58:56 -0400, the renowned Tony Cooper
<tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Orlando has a very high population of Vietnamese, and a very low
population of Chinese. The only Chinese person that I personally know
owns a restaurant/bakery that specializes in Vietnamese food and
French pastries. He was born in mainland China, but raised in the NYC
area. His wife is Vietnamese and her father started the business.
|
The Vietnamese "boat people" were primarily ethnic Chinese who speak a
Vietnamese variation on Cantonese. Vietnamese-Americans who immigrated
in that time period (about 25 years ago) may well consider themselves
Chinese.
One of my favorite cheap downtown Vietnamese restaurants typically has
a hockey game on the television, but it's hard to hear over the
cacophony of Cantonese from the staff. The Vietnamese language has a
much softer sound.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com |
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Tony Cooper
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:08 am
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 14:38:04 -0400, Martin Ambuhl
<mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote:
| Quote: | Tony Cooper wrote:
There were two black students in my class at Broad Ripple
High School, and quite a few black students at Shortridge High School.
Unfortunately, Shortridge seems to be no more. They closed it down
shortly before my father, a Shortridge alumnus, died.
The area west of Meridian Street from about 16th to
30th was another center of black population.
This surprises me. My very white (Swiss) and Republican grandfather
lived at 19th and Meridian the whole time he was police chief and later
city councilman. I spent a lot of time there without noticing a large
black population. Perhaps that was not an operational category for me then.
In the 50s, my grandfather lived at 19th Street and Talbott. Just a |
few blocks east of your grandfather's place. When visiting, I used to
walk down to the John Herron Art Museum on 16th Street and peer
through the windows to watch the nude models pose for the art
students.
The area I was referring to as a "colored area" was Illinois Street,
and the next few streets over each way. Meridian Street itself was
mostly businesses, insurance companies, and apartment buildings. The
private homes on Meridian didn't start until Meridian crossed Fall
Creek. Many of the businesses, though, on Meridian Street were in
converted former residences.
Both of my parents attended Shortridge.
Funny, but I was just talking to someone the other day about
automobile dealers and their offensive radio and TV ads. He thought
it was a new trend to be "crazy" on TV, but I was telling him about
the guy that ran the ads "The King Don't Care" in Indianapolis in the
50s. "No credit? No money? See Me. The King don't care. I'll sell
you a car". |
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Michael DeBusk
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:38 pm
Post subject: Re: black |
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On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 17:05:47 -0500, George
<george@please.reply.to.newsgroup> wrote:
Pathetic. I'm even more convinced now that there are people who are
alive today simply because it is illegal to kill.
You know who should be up in arms against this stupidity? Any black
person who wants to be taken seriously.
--
Michael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place
Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? |
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Ayaz Ahmed Khan
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:49 pm
Post subject: Re: black |
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"Tony Cooper" typed:
| Quote: | However, I am curious. What is there about "Oriental" that you find
offensive? If it is offensive to you, how offensive do you rate it?
Somewhat? Mildly? Greatly? Is there some historical application that
has made Oriental offensive to some?
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Mildly offensive, I should say. I don't exactly know why, except that
it sounds patronising -- if that's the right word that expresses what
I have in mind -- when one is categorised such. Yes: I believe
patronising is the right adjective here. It makes a person being
referred to come across as somewhat unimportant -- at least to me.
--
Ayaz Ahmed Khan, <http://fast-ce.org/linux>
``In my opinion MS is a lot better at making money than it is at making
good operating systems.'' -- Linus Torvalds |
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