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Gary Schnabl
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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"chris_tine49@hotmail.com" <chris.editrix@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131837959.022586.29960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | So you were hired for your content knowledge, not for your writing
ability.
That's sort of a different case.
Christine
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The documentations chief said he hired me primarily for my editing and
writing abilities. He since was promoted into another division there on
account of his recent MBA.
He further stated that the combination of superior editing/writing skills
plus competency in software engineering is **extremely rare** (his words) in
his direct experience.
I had not applied for recent employment there, although I once had a firm
job offer there but turned it down 39 years ago. At that time they were HQed
in inner-city, near-North side Chicago (Augusta Street with razor-wire
surrouding its employee parking lot). However, that was during the Vietnam
War era, and my employment as the chief engineer of a high-powered AM/FM
station in Milwaukee afforded me a deferment from the military draft by
Governor Knowles back then - something that the Chicago firm could not do...
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Ivor Longhorn
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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Shazam! No reason, it's just magic. So Rosco <ckrosco@yahoo.com> said:
| Quote: | Ivor Longhorn wrote:
Content knowledge without writing ability won't get you far as an
editor
or writer.
Bullshit. "Why I lied my way into the war on Iraq" would be a
bestseller if Mr Bush ever "wrote" it.
Sure, but he wouldn't write it...
If you mean that famous people can write books that sell - sure, no
doubt about it. What about the workaday writer like the technical
writer in the original post? Without writing ability he won't last long.
|
No, but there are plenty of areas where content knowledge is all.
Journos don't have to be able to write, only get the story. Analysts
in finance, ditto. Etc etc.
Dr Zen
Excruciatingly embarrasing signature contents go here.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com |
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Rosco
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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Ivor Longhorn wrote:
| Quote: | Content knowledge without writing ability won't get you far as an
editor
or writer.
Bullshit. "Why I lied my way into the war on Iraq" would be a
bestseller if Mr Bush ever "wrote" it.
|
Sure, but he wouldn't write it...
If you mean that famous people can write books that sell - sure, no
doubt about it. What about the workaday writer like the technical
writer in the original post? Without writing ability he won't last long.
--
Oolong Tea direct from Taiwan
http://www.teafromtaiwan.com/
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Ivor Longhorn
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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Shazam! No reason, it's just magic. So "chris_tine49@hotmail.com"
<chris.editrix@gmail.com> said:
| Quote: |
Gary Schnabl wrote:
I became a technical editor/writer for a mid-cap semiconductor manufacturer
($6 billion annual revenue) without any direct training or experience. Just
my electrical and computer engineering education and ability, I guess.
In essence, I was hired through email correspondence and over the phone
without even applying for employment. In fact, that was my first foray into
this field. So a writing workshop probably would have done little in my
case. It's mostly being in the right place at the right time.
So you were hired for your content knowledge, not for your writing
ability.
That's sort of a different case.
|
Not really. It's true for many kinds of writing.
Dr Zen
Excruciatingly embarrasing signature contents go here.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com |
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Rosco
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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Content knowledge without writing ability won't get you far as an editor
or writer. Having both doesn't guarantee a job.
Like the man said - he was in the right place at the right time. An
essential prerequisite for almost anything...
chris_tine49@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | Gary Schnabl wrote:
I became a technical editor/writer for a mid-cap semiconductor manufacturer
($6 billion annual revenue) without any direct training or experience. Just
my electrical and computer engineering education and ability, I guess.
In essence, I was hired through email correspondence and over the phone
without even applying for employment. In fact, that was my first foray into
this field. So a writing workshop probably would have done little in my
case. It's mostly being in the right place at the right time.
So you were hired for your content knowledge, not for your writing
ability.
That's sort of a different case.
Christine
|
--
Oolong Tea direct from Taiwan
http://www.teafromtaiwan.com/ |
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Ivor Longhorn
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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Shazam! No reason, it's just magic. So Rosco <ckrosco@yahoo.com> said:
| Quote: | Content knowledge without writing ability won't get you far as an editor
or writer.
|
Bullshit. "Why I lied my way into the war on Iraq" would be a
bestseller if Mr Bush ever "wrote" it.
| Quote: | Having both doesn't guarantee a job.
Like the man said - he was in the right place at the right time. An
essential prerequisite for almost anything...
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Only in so far as the converse is also true.
Dr Zen
Excruciatingly embarrasing signature contents go here.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com |
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B--
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:23 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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"chris_tine49@hotmail.com" <chris.editrix@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131837959.022586.29960@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Gary Schnabl wrote:
I became a technical editor/writer for a mid-cap semiconductor
manufacturer
($6 billion annual revenue) without any direct training or
experience. Just
my electrical and computer engineering education and ability, I
guess.
In essence, I was hired through email correspondence and over the
phone
without even applying for employment. In fact, that was my first
foray into
this field. So a writing workshop probably would have done little
in my
case. It's mostly being in the right place at the right time.
So you were hired for your content knowledge, not for your writing
ability.
That's sort of a different case.
Christine
Maybe, maybe not. He did say there was email correspondence and |
telephone contact. Sometimes that can give a good idea if someone can
convey technical information verbally and in writing. And lord knows,
there are few enough out there that can take the technicalities of
something they are immersed in and write it up in a way someone
outside of there profession can understand - read any manual or
on-line "help".
I have a sister who is an engineer who knows how to write. She has
never had any problem getting a gig.
--
Beth
"If earth is an urban planet, i'm moving to the suburbs." - Zero |
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Josh Hill
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:39 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 13:09:01 +0800, Rosco <ckrosco@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Ivor Longhorn wrote:
Content knowledge without writing ability won't get you far as an
editor
or writer.
Bullshit. "Why I lied my way into the war on Iraq" would be a
bestseller if Mr Bush ever "wrote" it.
Sure, but he wouldn't write it...
If you mean that famous people can write books that sell - sure, no
doubt about it. What about the workaday writer like the technical
writer in the original post? Without writing ability he won't last long.
|
For the most part, technical writing requires only minimal writing
ability. Most native English speakers who have the ability and
training to understand the material can probably do it serviceably.
And it seems to be fairly easy to find a tech writing job, perhaps
because it can be boring -- most engineers would rather design cool
stuff than write manuals for it.
--
Josh
"I'm not going to play like I've been a person who's spent hours
involved with foreign policy. I am who I am." - George W. Bush |
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chris_tine49@hotmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:02 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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Gary Schnabl wrote:
| Quote: |
The documentations chief said he hired me primarily for my editing and
writing abilities. He since was promoted into another division there on
account of his recent MBA.
While not intending to denigrate your skills, which I assume are very |
good, I'll hazared that documentations chiefs may not have the highest
standards for writing abilities except as they relate to technical
accuracy.
I once met one who was deliberately hiring English majors. Some thought
he'd been listening to Prairie Home Companion too much. But his end
users were ordinary people and not just lower-level geeks, so he
postulated that if the English majors could figure out how to do it
they'd be able to tell others how to do it in ways they had a prayer of
understanding. And he was right, in his situation.
(And yes, being an English major is no guarantee of being able to
write.)
| Quote: | He further stated that the combination of superior editing/writing skills
plus competency in software engineering is **extremely rare** (his words) in
his direct experience.
|
Won't find an argument here.
| Quote: |
IMilwaukee afforded me a deferment from the military draft by
Governor Knowles back then. . .
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Which station? WTMJ?
(I went to Knowles' inaugural as a Young Republican, which I guess
meant a blonde girl of almost legal age. . . )
Milwaukee Chris |
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Gary Schnabl
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:00 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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"chris_tine49@hotmail.com" <chris.editrix@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1131923699.953967.164620@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: |
Gary Schnabl wrote:
IMilwaukee afforded me a deferment from the military draft by
Governor Knowles back then. . .
Which station? WTMJ?
|
I wish. But it was 10 KW WAUK AM/20 KW FM in Waukesha back during the 1960s
starting when I was 22. Before that, I worked at 50 KW WISN as a staff
engineer. My ex-homeroom/math teacher was moonlighting at WISN during the
summer. During 1968 to 1970, I was at clear-channel 50 KW WRVA AM/
super-power FM in Richmond.
I helped set up part of the PA sound sytem and run it in 1966 for
UW-Milwaukee's spring graduation, and Warren was the speaker. My 1957 Jaguar
XK-140 roadster was parked behind the podium's backdrop curtains, and he
asked if he could get inside. A friend nearby was doing photography for
UW-M, so a few days later he dropped off a number of pictures with the
Governor in the car. I left the keys in it in case he wanted to start or
drive it. But I was too preoccupied with other affairs to see if he actually
did. I was pleasantly surprised seeing those 8 by 10 pictures, though.
I worked for WTMJ with the then multiple-year "Sportcaster of the Year" -
Jim Irwin (the GB Packers radioplay-by-play announcer) when he soloed three
years of the home games of University of Wisconsin Big-10 basketball games
while I was at 10KW WTSO (Ten-Seven-O)/ FM WZEE in Madison during 1974
through 1977). It was just Jim and me doing those games. Got parking spaces
for two! cars at the entry of Camp Randall (if I needed two cars at the UW
Field House!), plus three tickets in addition to mine in the press box in
the balcony.
| Quote: | (I went to Knowles' inaugural as a Young Republican, which I guess
meant a blonde girl of almost legal age. . . )
Milwaukee Chris
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NYC XYZ
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
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chris_tine49@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
So you are getting a degree in writing or composition? And the others
in your class have the same major/degree in their sights?
|
Most, yes; some, no.
And that's my beef against writing programs: you wouldn't have someone
who's still struggling with high school algebra in a Calc I course,
even, but in these writing workshops you have 101 flunkies in 400-level
classes!
Does anyone believe in excellence anymore? I'm not talking style here,
one particular way of writing -- I'm talking folks who don't know their
grammar, orthography, and just the sense of what makes for a story!
| Quote: | I don't know if that will work for you or against you <g>.
|
Indeed! I love how the Romans used to do it: apparently, at their
triumphs (military victory parades) there was a slave who was right
next to the conquering general, in his chariot, whose job it was to
periodically whisper in his ear "glory is fleeting."
| Quote: | Fuck a writer's sensibility. You can put on a beret and sit in a cafe
drinking absinthe or a double latte and talk writing to the death
anything you might have written while you were exercising your
sensibilities.
|
That's soooo not a "writer's sensibility." That's no writer to begin
with, but a coffee conoisseur.
| Quote: | The problem is the students in your class don't take writing as
seriously as you do.
|
Well, yeah. How did they get into the class, numbered 357? Supposed
to be advanced.
Why are writing programs like this? Can anyone actually FAIL a writing
course short of disappearing without a word??
| Quote: | Sounds like you've developed a sufficient level of skill to get out
there and hear what the editors and publishers have to say.
|
Or maybe I haven't, and it's just that I'm a big fish in a very small
pond -- a real intellectual backwater, so to speak! That's the thing.
I want to be "prepared"...and it may well be the case that I'm no
"real" writer where it counts, out there in the great wide world of
literature. It's funny how these workshops so stress the "literary
genre" of fiction but they tolerate hack standards!
| Quote: | That's concrete. You find a journal that seems to publish stuff like
the stuff you write. You look at their guidelines. You make your piece
fit and submit it. Then you repeat the process. Again and again.
|
Okay, I guess it's really that..."simple"....
| Quote: | Only if you are doing the Iowa Writer's Workshop or something
comparable. Your experience suggests that you are not.
I do like the idea that workshops send out students. That's probably
what they do, if they are good. . .
|
OOPS!! A Freudian slip of sorts on my part -- I didn't mean
"students," I meant "writers!"
8-d
"Send out STUDENTS...of writing"...?? Hmm....
| Quote: | But you want to be a writer, not a student. Yes? Or maybe not. Maybe
you want to be a writing workshop teacher. . .
|
LOL -- it's a delicate thing to talk to the Professors about, that's
for sure!
| Quote: | You've got it. Now is that what you want to do? Do you want to write or
do you want to be a writer or do you want to critique writers and
writing workshops?
|
I guess I'll settle for trolling usenet. >=]
| Quote: | Direct your attention to writing and sending stuff out to publishers,
not to lamenting your inferior classmates.
|
I know that sounds so silly of me to do, but my frustration is that I
want to be stimulated by something other than fiction anthologies! To
wit, my fellow writers! I really feel like I'm working in a
vaccuum...since even the anthologized "masters" are from years ago and,
though still important, aren't quite the same...you know...as going
over issues with people...who, even if their sensibilities are
different, at least share a committment to excellence, and who have a
certain level of "education" about the world and about literature (for
example, it's one thing to find postmodernism not to one's tastes, it's
another to have never even heard of it and not able to distinguish a
postmodernist attempt from poor writing/storytelling skills).
| Quote: | You don't propound writing. You do it. You model it. You get your
students excited and you set them in motion and step in to correct
their course now and then. The rest is up to the participants.
|
I don't mean "propound" in the sense of propaganda, but I chose such a
heavy word because there is a sense of the fluff about these
programs...the familiar equivalent in a math class would be "you don't
propound/explain/place in a historical/cultural/theoretical/pratical
context mathematics...you do it...you model it..." -- and we all
remember how that went!
These kids are lost and clueless...and unfortunately, the professor
seems to be -- you don't know something unless you're able to explain
it to yourself, and it seems that these folks follow that
anti-intellectual "no-nothing" attitude of
I-don't-know-how-I-do-it-I-just mystical mumbo-jumbo....
| Quote: | Of course it does. Could you be at the wrong school? Or just in a bad
class? Ask your professor to turn up the heat under you, if not the
others.
|
I'm turning the heat up on myself, believe me! I'm easily putting
forth stuff that by any conceievable "measure" would be the work of
five or six of my fellows -- most obviously in terms of sheer number of
pages, but, honestly, also in terms of "sensibility," the thing that
comes off the page which gives you a sense of the author being someone
trustworthy, like watching a tight-rope act and not fearing for the
performers' competence.
So anyway, I'm certainly pushing myself pretty hard (I'd say at about
85% effort) by writing student standards (as opposed to "pro" 12 hrs. a
day chained in front of the keyboard) -- I just wish to work with
others in exploring new ways of doing things, not just for effect and
novelty, but to present a new way of seeing things by doing things in a
new way....
| Quote: | Deep enough? You want theory? Then study rhetoric or linguistics.
Writing is a performance art, and workshops are explicitly about
hands-on creation.
|
Aw, c'mon, even the best stand-up comics will tell you how much
planning and so forth goes into each act. It only looks spontaneous
and "hands-on"...it's like a pick-up artist at the bar -- he is
successful precisely because he seems so natural and innocent!
There is quite a logical -- "mathematical" -- structure to it
all...timing...sense of proportion...these can be taught, discussed,
debates, rejected -- though of course that final ingredient of "magic"
is up to the individual (etc.), at the outset there's so much that goes
on which could be made explicit...remember, human beings only master
something when they're conscious of it...it's the difference between
being healthy due to physical activity coincidental with your lifestyle
and being a world-class athlete because your lifestyle explicitly
exploits the latest knowledge of the human body....
| Quote: | You can't be serious. It's totally easy to criticize the half-baked.
Cheap, easy labor.
|
EXACTLY!!!!! SO WHY DO WRITING PROGRAMS ACCEPT HALF-BAKED CRAP FROM
THEIR STUDENTS????
Two whole weeks results in four pages of double-spaced non sequitors
and such??
How can you honestly workshop a piece that's rushed -- by the authors'
own admissions, no less! -- and half-baked? What the hell is the point
of such a course????
| Quote: | All the worse for them, then. Sow, reap.
|
Right -- but I'm supposed to participate! Bad enough to have to sit
there, feeling lonely. But I'm supposed to give my comments! How
often can I point out the misspellings, the poor grammar, the "where is
this going," the "what is your point," the "where is the story," the
"who are these characters" -- how often can I go on like this without
alienating people?
It's crazy 'cause the writing program at Hunter College is headed by
some in, hip big-name prize-winning best-selling author! Now I haven't
been fortunate enough to study with him -- I work for a living, as Army
sergeants like to quip -- and superstars like this work only 9-5, you
know, like banks and post offices who are only open when you can't be
there!
| Quote: | You can only push people who want to be pushed. The rest need to be
pulled. So let him push you.
|
Ultimately, I've come to the depressing conclusion that this guy is
just "technically" better than my classmates -- but he seems to have no
better "vision"...you know, the difference between a "bureaucrat" and
the political leader...he knows his "mechanics," like an engineer, but
no architect....
Else he would have done the course differently. Those who want to tune
out can always tune out. He needn't "push" them, in the final
analysis. But he could "turn on" or set in motion the creativity of
those who are just waiting for their muse, so to speak...except he is
no such "poet," not the man for the job.
That's the thing...when you realize that you're probably better than
the leader himself! Feels like a stereotypical Army situation of the
lieutenant in charge not being as competent as the grunts....
| Quote: | Intellect isn't really what writing is about. That's an element, a tool
you use, but writing's about the story connecting with the reader.
|
I'm sure we're stumbling over semantics here. But honestly, everything
relates to the mind, the brain -- however we like to use words like
"soul" and "spirit" and so forth.
There really is a theory of fiction, a method to the madness. You
don't like the word, but you cannot deny the reality (though, of
course, the word defines the reality for us who stumble over
semantics!). The reality is that there is a philosophy or theory, an
aesthetic sensibility (aesthetics was one of the three main branches of
ancient Greek thought), to everything we do, whether we can articulate
it, and however we choose to...whether we're even aware of it, there's
a rhyme and reason which can be made explicit, spelled-out (even if not
"perfectly"), and brought out/up/in....
| Quote: | You can learn methods that work and the theories or evidence for them,
but that doesn't mean your application of them will get the desired
results.
|
Indeed, "reader response theory" of literary criticism. =)
One is more likely to hit the bull's eye by aiming for it, you agree?
At this preliminary level, one needs to know windage, breathing, etc.
Technical aspects. You don't just put a rifle in your hand and start
blasting away, learning through sheer trial and error (I mean, of
course you can, but unless a natural, it's grossly inefficient).
| Quote: | You need to muck around with writing, with doing it. Again,
that's what workshops are about. Doing, getting feedback of variable
quality, doing again until you get it right enough.
|
And that's different from being an Emily Dickenson in your own little
room -- how? When the advice you get is "oh, I like this;" "oh, I
don't like this"...it's meaningless.
Just like you need a common language to communicate -- English, etc. --
you need a common theoretical framework from which to critique -- POV,
tone, style, etc. Now I am ****NOT**** saying that we need to all
think alike; I am saying that there is a common framework, like a
language, to which we all refer, and, one hopes, from which we can all
jump off into new territory.
But saying you like/dislike something without being able to explain
why/why not in a meaningful way is a waste of time. That's the level
of discourse..."I'd like to see more of this character"...WHY????
That's a minor character of no consequence, why do you think the writer
should devote more time to it???? "Because it's the most interesting
person for me"...WHY???? What about this minor character so interests
you? "I don't know...I guess it's 'cause I'm a single mom, too"...JFC!
| Quote: | What you are learning is how to be an introductory composition teacher,
then.
|
It certainly feels that way.
| Quote: | Complain. It's your money and the school's false advertising. It
won't do a bit of good unless you are prepared to vote with your feet,
of course, and probably not then. But you really need to put up or shut
up, eh?
|
Right. And I guess I should move to France since I'm against the Iraq
war, huh?
You're right it won't do any good in the here and now. Hopefully some
writing teachers trolling these NGs -- chuckle! -- might pick up on
this bit of wisdom: WE NEED INTELLECTUAL RIGOR! THIS IS NOT ARTS AND
CRAFTS AT SUMMER CAMP!
| Quote: | Then you need to be in a lit or lit crit course.
|
What is this stupid conceit among writers that it's an either/or
proposition, that one either practices or one philosophizes, when the
reality is so clearly different?
| Quote: | Who at your school can help you do something about that? If no one, why
are you there?
|
See (all of the) above.
| Quote: | Then don't. Or you might find a more serious group outside of formal
academia to supplement your degree work. Ironic.
|
Yeah, sure.
| Quote: | You say that like you think you don't have any <g>.
|
Not as such, no. I may "nod" occasionally, but how would one know one
has any "lapses"? For the awareness of such means its elimination --
if I know, for (an easy but useful) example, that a word is misspelled,
then I no longer misspell it. But if I didn't know it's misspelled,
why would I ever think it were?
No, unless you have a different definition of "writing lapses"...for
me, that doesn't mean typos and such -- it means, if I were to use the
term, serious problems in thought, as John Gardner observed: all
writing problems are problems of the writer's personality, his
understanding of things, etc.
| Quote: | I'd have to see your writing. But as someone who happens to teach
writing workshops now and then, if you handed this rant in I would tell
you that you don't display critical thinking
|
Now this is interesting. What is "critical thinking" for you? I don't
have any syllogisms here, that's true, but what I argue you've yet to
refute. You beg the question, actually. Instead of answering the
problem, you suggest try a different school. An Alexandrian "Gordian
Knot" solution, to be sure -- except it isn't, when you yourself have
implicitly agreed that this is just the state of things everywhere.
| Quote: | (there isn't any here,
really, though it's certainly critical) or imagination and you fail
to give the reader anything new.
|
If this is an old complaint of writing workshops, then it seems that
the complaint accrues even more validity!
| Quote: | You know: WHY THE HELL SHOULD ANY
BUNCH OF CRANKY STRANGERS WHO FANCY THEMSELVES WRITERS CARE ABOUT THIS
whine of a college student who gets to take writing workshops and then
complain about them to cranky strangers while we are working or
idling?
|
'Cause one cares about writing and its teaching. What's your excuse?
| Quote: | Your writing seeks sympathy, even pity. Do you think it achieves its
end?
|
Show where you infer that.
If you debated the merits of the issues, I think you'd find the
conversation more interesting.
| Quote: | Oh. Somebody ought to go out and do that at your behest, eh?
|
Why make this personal? Feeling a little too hot in the kitchen?
Discuss ideas if you will. That's what I'm here for.
| Quote: | Then write
a COMPELLING,
|
Judging by the amount of time you've spent, I'd say this is compelling.
| Quote: | imaginative argument
|
Give an example of an "imaginative" argument. I bet you can't.
| Quote: | for that that doesn't hinge on self
pity and snobbery (or if it does, does it in an amusing way).
|
You're reading the self-pity in yourself. Snobbery is an inevitable
charge when one claims that something isn't good enough, and it's like
arguing about the existence of God -- a non-issue, really.
| Quote: | Or get the necessary degrees and reform academic writing workshops.
|
And you can run for President yourself or shut up, right?
| Quote: | Christine (worth more than the tuition you've paid for your workshop)
|
Funny, did you think you were one of these talentless writing workshop
hacks? |
|
| Back to top |
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NYC XYZ
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
|
|
chris_tine49@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
So you are getting a degree in writing or composition? And the others
in your class have the same major/degree in their sights?
|
Most, yes; some, no.
And that's my beef against writing programs: you wouldn't have someone
who's still struggling with high school algebra in a Calc I course,
even, but in these writing workshops you have 101 flunkies in 400-level
classes!
Does anyone believe in excellence anymore? I'm not talking style here,
one particular way of writing -- I'm talking folks who don't know their
grammar, orthography, and just the sense of what makes for a story!
| Quote: | I don't know if that will work for you or against you <g>.
|
Indeed! I love how the Romans used to do it: apparently, at their
triumphs (military victory parades) there was a slave who was right
next to the conquering general, in his chariot, whose job it was to
periodically whisper in his ear "glory is fleeting."
| Quote: | Fuck a writer's sensibility. You can put on a beret and sit in a cafe
drinking absinthe or a double latte and talk writing to the death
anything you might have written while you were exercising your
sensibilities.
|
That's soooo not a "writer's sensibility." That's no writer to begin
with, but a coffee conoisseur.
| Quote: | The problem is the students in your class don't take writing as
seriously as you do.
|
Well, yeah. How did they get into the class, numbered 357? Supposed
to be advanced.
Why are writing programs like this? Can anyone actually FAIL a writing
course short of disappearing without a word??
| Quote: | Sounds like you've developed a sufficient level of skill to get out
there and hear what the editors and publishers have to say.
|
Or maybe I haven't, and it's just that I'm a big fish in a very small
pond -- a real intellectual backwater, so to speak! That's the thing.
I want to be "prepared"...and it may well be the case that I'm no
"real" writer where it counts, out there in the great wide world of
literature. It's funny how these workshops so stress the "literary
genre" of fiction but they tolerate hack standards!
| Quote: | That's concrete. You find a journal that seems to publish stuff like
the stuff you write. You look at their guidelines. You make your piece
fit and submit it. Then you repeat the process. Again and again.
|
Okay, I guess it's really that..."simple"....
| Quote: | Only if you are doing the Iowa Writer's Workshop or something
comparable. Your experience suggests that you are not.
I do like the idea that workshops send out students. That's probably
what they do, if they are good. . .
|
OOPS!! A Freudian slip of sorts on my part -- I didn't mean
"students," I meant "writers!"
8-d
"Send out STUDENTS...of writing"...?? Hmm....
| Quote: | But you want to be a writer, not a student. Yes? Or maybe not. Maybe
you want to be a writing workshop teacher. . .
|
LOL -- it's a delicate thing to talk to the Professors about, that's
for sure!
| Quote: | You've got it. Now is that what you want to do? Do you want to write or
do you want to be a writer or do you want to critique writers and
writing workshops?
|
I guess I'll settle for trolling usenet. >=]
| Quote: | Direct your attention to writing and sending stuff out to publishers,
not to lamenting your inferior classmates.
|
I know that sounds so silly of me to do, but my frustration is that I
want to be stimulated by something other than fiction anthologies! To
wit, my fellow writers! I really feel like I'm working in a
vaccuum...since even the anthologized "masters" are from years ago and,
though still important, aren't quite the same...you know...as going
over issues with people...who, even if their sensibilities are
different, at least share a committment to excellence, and who have a
certain level of "education" about the world and about literature (for
example, it's one thing to find postmodernism not to one's tastes, it's
another to have never even heard of it and not able to distinguish a
postmodernist attempt from poor writing/storytelling skills).
| Quote: | You don't propound writing. You do it. You model it. You get your
students excited and you set them in motion and step in to correct
their course now and then. The rest is up to the participants.
|
I don't mean "propound" in the sense of propaganda, but I chose such a
heavy word because there is a sense of the fluff about these
programs...the familiar equivalent in a math class would be "you don't
propound/explain/place in a historical/cultural/theoretical/pratical
context mathematics...you do it...you model it..." -- and we all
remember how that went!
These kids are lost and clueless...and unfortunately, the professor
seems to be -- you don't know something unless you're able to explain
it to yourself, and it seems that these folks follow that
anti-intellectual "no-nothing" attitude of
I-don't-know-how-I-do-it-I-just mystical mumbo-jumbo....
| Quote: | Of course it does. Could you be at the wrong school? Or just in a bad
class? Ask your professor to turn up the heat under you, if not the
others.
|
I'm turning the heat up on myself, believe me! I'm easily putting
forth stuff that by any conceievable "measure" would be the work of
five or six of my fellows -- most obviously in terms of sheer number of
pages, but, honestly, also in terms of "sensibility," the thing that
comes off the page which gives you a sense of the author being someone
trustworthy, like watching a tight-rope act and not fearing for the
performers' competence.
So anyway, I'm certainly pushing myself pretty hard (I'd say at about
85% effort) by writing student standards (as opposed to "pro" 12 hrs. a
day chained in front of the keyboard) -- I just wish to work with
others in exploring new ways of doing things, not just for effect and
novelty, but to present a new way of seeing things by doing things in a
new way....
| Quote: | Deep enough? You want theory? Then study rhetoric or linguistics.
Writing is a performance art, and workshops are explicitly about
hands-on creation.
|
Aw, c'mon, even the best stand-up comics will tell you how much
planning and so forth goes into each act. It only looks spontaneous
and "hands-on"...it's like a pick-up artist at the bar -- he is
successful precisely because he seems so natural and innocent!
There is quite a logical -- "mathematical" -- structure to it
all...timing...sense of proportion...these can be taught, discussed,
debates, rejected -- though of course that final ingredient of "magic"
is up to the individual (etc.), at the outset there's so much that goes
on which could be made explicit...remember, human beings only master
something when they're conscious of it...it's the difference between
being healthy due to physical activity coincidental with your lifestyle
and being a world-class athlete because your lifestyle explicitly
exploits the latest knowledge of the human body....
| Quote: | You can't be serious. It's totally easy to criticize the half-baked.
Cheap, easy labor.
|
EXACTLY!!!!! SO WHY DO WRITING PROGRAMS ACCEPT HALF-BAKED CRAP FROM
THEIR STUDENTS????
Two whole weeks results in four pages of double-spaced non sequitors
and such??
How can you honestly workshop a piece that's rushed -- by the authors'
own admissions, no less! -- and half-baked? What the hell is the point
of such a course????
| Quote: | All the worse for them, then. Sow, reap.
|
Right -- but I'm supposed to participate! Bad enough to have to sit
there, feeling lonely. But I'm supposed to give my comments! How
often can I point out the misspellings, the poor grammar, the "where is
this going," the "what is your point," the "where is the story," the
"who are these characters" -- how often can I go on like this without
alienating people?
It's crazy 'cause the writing program at Hunter College is headed by
some in, hip big-name prize-winning best-selling author! Now I haven't
been fortunate enough to study with him -- I work for a living, as Army
sergeants like to quip -- and superstars like this work only 9-5, you
know, like banks and post offices who are only open when you can't be
there!
| Quote: | You can only push people who want to be pushed. The rest need to be
pulled. So let him push you.
|
Ultimately, I've come to the depressing conclusion that this guy is
just "technically" better than my classmates -- but he seems to have no
better "vision"...you know, the difference between a "bureaucrat" and
the political leader...he knows his "mechanics," like an engineer, but
no architect....
Else he would have done the course differently. Those who want to tune
out can always tune out. He needn't "push" them, in the final
analysis. But he could "turn on" or set in motion the creativity of
those who are just waiting for their muse, so to speak...except he is
no such "poet," not the man for the job.
That's the thing...when you realize that you're probably better than
the leader himself! Feels like a stereotypical Army situation of the
lieutenant in charge not being as competent as the grunts....
| Quote: | Intellect isn't really what writing is about. That's an element, a tool
you use, but writing's about the story connecting with the reader.
|
I'm sure we're stumbling over semantics here. But honestly, everything
relates to the mind, the brain -- however we like to use words like
"soul" and "spirit" and so forth.
There really is a theory of fiction, a method to the madness. You
don't like the word, but you cannot deny the reality (though, of
course, the word defines the reality for us who stumble over
semantics!). The reality is that there is a philosophy or theory, an
aesthetic sensibility (aesthetics was one of the three main branches of
ancient Greek thought), to everything we do, whether we can articulate
it, and however we choose to...whether we're even aware of it, there's
a rhyme and reason which can be made explicit, spelled-out (even if not
"perfectly"), and brought out/up/in....
| Quote: | You can learn methods that work and the theories or evidence for them,
but that doesn't mean your application of them will get the desired
results.
|
Indeed, "reader response theory" of literary criticism. =)
One is more likely to hit the bull's eye by aiming for it, you agree?
At this preliminary level, one needs to know windage, breathing, etc.
Technical aspects. You don't just put a rifle in your hand and start
blasting away, learning through sheer trial and error (I mean, of
course you can, but unless a natural, it's grossly inefficient).
| Quote: | You need to muck around with writing, with doing it. Again,
that's what workshops are about. Doing, getting feedback of variable
quality, doing again until you get it right enough.
|
And that's different from being an Emily Dickenson in your own little
room -- how? When the advice you get is "oh, I like this;" "oh, I
don't like this"...it's meaningless.
Just like you need a common language to communicate -- English, etc. --
you need a common theoretical framework from which to critique -- POV,
tone, style, etc. Now I am ****NOT**** saying that we need to all
think alike; I am saying that there is a common framework, like a
language, to which we all refer, and, one hopes, from which we can all
jump off into new territory.
But saying you like/dislike something without being able to explain
why/why not in a meaningful way is a waste of time. That's the level
of discourse..."I'd like to see more of this character"...WHY????
That's a minor character of no consequence, why do you think the writer
should devote more time to it???? "Because it's the most interesting
person for me"...WHY???? What about this minor character so interests
you? "I don't know...I guess it's 'cause I'm a single mom, too"...JFC!
| Quote: | What you are learning is how to be an introductory composition teacher,
then.
|
It certainly feels that way.
| Quote: | Complain. It's your money and the school's false advertising. It
won't do a bit of good unless you are prepared to vote with your feet,
of course, and probably not then. But you really need to put up or shut
up, eh?
|
Right. And I guess I should move to France since I'm against the Iraq
war, huh?
You're right it won't do any good in the here and now. Hopefully some
writing teachers trolling these NGs -- chuckle! -- might pick up on
this bit of wisdom: WE NEED INTELLECTUAL RIGOR! THIS IS NOT ARTS AND
CRAFTS AT SUMMER CAMP!
| Quote: | Then you need to be in a lit or lit crit course.
|
What is this stupid conceit among writers that it's an either/or
proposition, that one either practices or one philosophizes, when the
reality is so clearly different?
| Quote: | Who at your school can help you do something about that? If no one, why
are you there?
|
See (all of the) above.
| Quote: | Then don't. Or you might find a more serious group outside of formal
academia to supplement your degree work. Ironic.
|
Yeah, sure.
| Quote: | You say that like you think you don't have any <g>.
|
Not as such, no. I may "nod" occasionally, but how would one know one
has any "lapses"? For the awareness of such means its elimination --
if I know, for (an easy but useful) example, that a word is misspelled,
then I no longer misspell it. But if I didn't know it's misspelled,
why would I ever think it were?
No, unless you have a different definition of "writing lapses"...for
me, that doesn't mean typos and such -- it means, if I were to use the
term, serious problems in thought, as John Gardner observed: all
writing problems are problems of the writer's personality, his
understanding of things, etc.
| Quote: | I'd have to see your writing. But as someone who happens to teach
writing workshops now and then, if you handed this rant in I would tell
you that you don't display critical thinking
|
Now this is interesting. What is "critical thinking" for you? I don't
have any syllogisms here, that's true, but what I argue you've yet to
refute. You beg the question, actually. Instead of answering the
problem, you suggest try a different school. An Alexandrian "Gordian
Knot" solution, to be sure -- except it isn't, when you yourself have
implicitly agreed that this is just the state of things everywhere.
| Quote: | (there isn't any here,
really, though it's certainly critical) or imagination and you fail
to give the reader anything new.
|
If this is an old complaint of writing workshops, then it seems that
the complaint accrues even more validity!
| Quote: | You know: WHY THE HELL SHOULD ANY
BUNCH OF CRANKY STRANGERS WHO FANCY THEMSELVES WRITERS CARE ABOUT THIS
whine of a college student who gets to take writing workshops and then
complain about them to cranky strangers while we are working or
idling?
|
'Cause one cares about writing and its teaching. What's your excuse?
| Quote: | Your writing seeks sympathy, even pity. Do you think it achieves its
end?
|
Show where you infer that.
If you debated the merits of the issues, I think you'd find the
conversation more interesting.
| Quote: | Oh. Somebody ought to go out and do that at your behest, eh?
|
Why make this personal? Feeling a little too hot in the kitchen?
Discuss ideas if you will. That's what I'm here for.
| Quote: | Then write
a COMPELLING,
|
Judging by the amount of time you've spent, I'd say this is compelling.
| Quote: | imaginative argument
|
Give an example of an "imaginative" argument. I bet you can't.
| Quote: | for that that doesn't hinge on self
pity and snobbery (or if it does, does it in an amusing way).
|
You're reading the self-pity in yourself. Snobbery is an inevitable
charge when one claims that something isn't good enough, and it's like
arguing about the existence of God -- a non-issue, really.
| Quote: | Or get the necessary degrees and reform academic writing workshops.
|
And you can run for President yourself or shut up, right?
| Quote: | Christine (worth more than the tuition you've paid for your workshop)
|
Funny, did you think you were one of these talentless writing workshop
hacks? |
|
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chris_tine49@hotmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:58 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
|
|
NYC XYZ wrote:
I'll reiterate the points you seem to have missed:
1. A writing WORKSHOP is a particular kind of class, the main emphasis
of which is on the doing, not the theory.
2. A writer's "sensibility," in my opinion, is that it's imperative to
write and keep writing, regardless of any external circumstances.
3. Yes, it's really that simple. Not easy, but simple.
4. Despite your disappointment with your officially vetted university
classes, you continue to expect the student writers you encounter
there to be superior to hardworking writers in the community, a number
of whom are in very demanding, challenging writing groups. What's that
about, do you suppose?
5. It's not only not necessary to discuss postmodernism to write a hell
of a story; doing so is likely to interfere..
6. There's a body of theory and knowledge about writing but writing is
not math.
7. Writing workshops are not about "I don't know how to do it I just do
it mystical mumbo jumbo." They are about taking the text and pinning
it, dead or alive, on the dissection board, and figuring out what's not
working. And then creating something that does work based on that
knowledge or taking a different approach.
| Quote: | I just wish to work with
others in exploring new ways of doing things, not just for effect and
novelty, but to present a new way of seeing things by doing things in a
new way....
|
8. Then do so.
9. If you want to avoid alienating people, writing is not the best
career path, and criticism is even worse..
10. If you are getting scraps from the Hunter College table and they
aren't sustaining you, find a different table. You may have to unchain
yourself from the snobbery/jpoor me thing that's got you wrapped around
the table leg, though.
11. It's not different from being Emily Dickenson in your own little
room. What's different is that you are unlikely to achieve anything
remotely approaching her quality no matter how many lifetimes you'd
spend in your cloister..
12. What you need is workshop writing rigor, not intellectual rigor
alone. Like it or not, it's about the craft.
13. Critical thinking means that you question yourself and your
preconceptions as well as others and theirs. It means you look for new
points of view and solutions.
14. Writing is not about debate. It's about writing.
15. Writing criticism IS personal, for you as well as for those you
criticize.
16. An imaginative argument is one that I haven't heard before and that
makes me think and see something new, maybe even consider changing my
mind. It requires me to do more than say, yeah, damn straight: what he
said--or here we go: schools sucks, I'm too good for this, pity me,
admire me.
| Quote: | Funny, did you think you were one of these talentless writing workshop
hacks?
|
No, I'm a TALENTED writing workshop hack. It's a small part of what I
do, though.
My measures of success probably are different from yours. My aim is to
help people write something that' s publishable, and measures of my
success are whether they a) submit something for publication and b)
get it published. Participants from each of the last four workshops on
narrative writing have published essays they worked on in the
workshops in national publications.
In some workshops, 100% of participants submit their products, but
that's because it's a requirement for getting credit for having
completed those particular workshops. Those are specialized medical
research. Of submitted manuscripts last year, 8/12 were published in
journals and the rest ended up taking on a different form (web-based
education modules, for instance.)
Gittin' er done requires being extremely hard-nosed and assed. Not for
the faint of heart.
Christine |
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NYC XYZ
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:43 am
Post subject: Re: Does Your Writing Workshop Suck Shit?? |
|
|
chris_tine49@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: | NYC XYZ wrote:
I'll reiterate the points you seem to have missed:
1. A writing WORKSHOP is a particular kind of class, the main emphasis
of which is on the doing, not the theory.
|
And my thesis has been that it needs theory to inform the doing,
otherwise it's the blind leading the blind.
Kinda like relationships where the two parties have different notions
of "love"....
| Quote: | 2. A writer's "sensibility," in my opinion, is that it's imperative to
write and keep writing, regardless of any external circumstances.
|
Sure, as you're defining the term in a context you've brought up.
I brought up the term in the context of the feeling one gets from a
piece of writing -- voice, atmosphere, etc. A lot of these pieces do
not demonstrate even an awareness of them, much less a concern or
attempt at them!
Again, it seems that theory was sorely lacking in their 101 classes....
| Quote: | 3. Yes, it's really that simple. Not easy, but simple.
|
Thanks -- that's New Year Resolution Number One!
| Quote: | 4. Despite your disappointment with your officially vetted university
classes, you continue to expect the student writers you encounter
there to be superior to hardworking writers in the community, a number
of whom are in very demanding, challenging writing groups. What's that
about, do you suppose?
|
As per our discussion, I was thinking that a sense of mission needs to
be imparted in these workshops, a la John Gardner's "Art of Fiction" --
that sense that we're not just here for therapy, group hugs, and an
easy A. Pursuant to that new attitude, more "intellectual rigor" --
deeply thinking about a piece, as opposed to shooting in the dark and
asking for comments -- needs to be applied.
| Quote: | 5. It's not only not necessary to discuss postmodernism to write a hell
of a story; doing so is likely to interfere..
|
That was one example. And of all that you infer, you may certainly
infer that I didn't mean "discuss" in the sense of a literature course.
But an understanding of what has gone before, as well as what's
happening now, cannot be injurous to a writer's education. Again, the
individual may tune out, as desired -- but it ought to be on the menu.
| Quote: | 6. There's a body of theory and knowledge about writing but writing is
not math.
|
Fiction is a language -- "a mode of thought," to use Gardner's
insightful term -- and like mathematics, music, dance, and fashion, it
is a system of signs and symbols with an underlying logic. Again, to
borrow Gardner -- "grasp the trunk and you have the branches"...at a
higher level, there isn't anything so distinct as
philosophy/art/science/athletics...there is only humanity, and what it
means to be human. Insofar as writing is taught with such a "bird's
eye view" it broadens horizons.
| Quote: | 7. Writing workshops are not about "I don't know how to do it I just do
it mystical mumbo jumbo." They are about taking the text and pinning
it, dead or alive, on the dissection board, and figuring out what's not
working. And then creating something that does work based on that
knowledge or taking a different approach.
|
And, as I've said, the "approach" is the "theory" or philosophy,
however implicit and unconscious, even. Why not bring it out? So that
we're not the proverbial blind men with different parts of the
elephant...when someone thinks a piece needs to be "fleshed out," say,
what does that really mean? A minimalist piece is necessarily
"skeletal," so to speak, in comparison to something written in the
naturalistic style, say. It makes no sense to advise that one add
seafood to chicken soup!
But writing workshops have just that blind spot! It may sound very
clever to quip like you are, but believe me you are merely
side-stepping the question.
| Quote: | 9. If you want to avoid alienating people, writing is not the best
career path, and criticism is even worse..
|
I've long accepted Socrates fate for myself...the ignorant always get
personal.
| Quote: | 10. If you are getting scraps from the Hunter College table and they
aren't sustaining you, find a different table. You may have to unchain
yourself from the snobbery/jpoor me thing that's got you wrapped around
the table leg, though.
|
Are you still beating your wife?
| Quote: | 11. It's not different from being Emily Dickenson in your own little
room. What's different is that you are unlikely to achieve anything
remotely approaching her quality no matter how many lifetimes you'd
spend in your cloister..
|
Are you still beating your wife?
| Quote: | 12. What you need is workshop writing rigor, not intellectual rigor
alone. Like it or not, it's about the craft.
|
That's what I've been arguing for. But for your bizzare ax to grind,
we're actually not in disagreement here.
| Quote: | 13. Critical thinking means that you question yourself and your
preconceptions as well as others and theirs. It means you look for new
points of view and solutions.
|
Exactly. You cannot claim these writing workshops are conducive to new
POVs and so forth if they're doing the same old pedagogy.
| Quote: | 14. Writing is not about debate. It's about writing.
|
"There's no such thing as writing, only rewriting."
Of course you debate -- you debate with yourself, you debate with
others.
| Quote: | 15. Writing criticism IS personal, for you as well as for those you
criticize.
|
That you fail to distinguish between the person and the idea is a
really sad misfortune for the state of writing education. Or do you
believe Democrats should be lined up against the wall?
| Quote: | 16. An imaginative argument is one that I haven't heard before and that
makes me think and see something new, maybe even consider changing my
mind. It requires me to do more than say, yeah, damn straight: what he
said--or here we go: schools sucks, I'm too good for this, pity me,
admire me.
|
Me, me, me, me, me...no wonder!
You have yet to point out where I've engaged in self-pitying, of
course.
Do you write speeches for Bush? "Intelligence" reports, even?
| Quote: | No, I'm a TALENTED writing workshop hack. It's a small part of what I
do, though.
|
So why are you offended?
| Quote: | My measures of success probably are different from yours. My aim is to
help people write something that' s publishable, and measures of my
success are whether they a) submit something for publication and b)
get it published. Participants from each of the last four workshops on
narrative writing have published essays they worked on in the
workshops in national publications.
|
Indeed we measure success differently.
| Quote: | In some workshops, 100% of participants submit their products, but
that's because it's a requirement for getting credit for having
completed those particular workshops. Those are specialized medical
research. Of submitted manuscripts last year, 8/12 were published in
journals and the rest ended up taking on a different form (web-based
education modules, for instance.)
|
Of course, I've been talking about creative writing workshops all
along.
| Quote: | Gittin' er done requires being extremely hard-nosed and assed. Not for
the faint of heart.
Christine
|
Nor for the touchy of ego. |
|
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