| Author |
Message |
Jordan Abel
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Irony? |
|
|
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
| Quote: | What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
|
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfb2aa4aa5a38d5989ace@news.individual.net...
| Quote: | In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
|
But that *isn't* irony - it's more or less what might be expected.
It would *more* ironic if only 2 or 3 parents showed up.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
don groves
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
In article <2vdhdmF2kenegU1@uni-berlin.de>, Dylan Nicholson at
wizofaus@hotmail.com exposited:
| Quote: | "don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfb2aa4aa5a38d5989ace@news.individual.net...
In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
But that *isn't* irony - it's more or less what might be expected.
It would *more* ironic if only 2 or 3 parents showed up.
|
But that *is* irony.
--
dg (domain=ccwebster) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John O'Flaherty
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
|
That has all the connectedness of irony, but it's a congruity rather
than an incongruity.
--
john |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bill Bonde ( ``And the La
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:07 am
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson wrote:
| Quote: |
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfb2aa4aa5a38d5989ace@news.individual.net...
In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
But that *isn't* irony - it's more or less what might be expected.
It would *more* ironic if only 2 or 3 parents showed up.
How is that ironic? It would really be ironic if only two or three |
parents showed up and there still wasn't enough room and the meeting had
to be cancelled.
--
So I was feeding the hummingbirds but not changing the feeder sugar
water quickly enough and it fermented into something like that stuff
that Hunter S Thompson was drinking in the Rum Diary, anyway, so I had
these drunk birds flying everywhere just like mosquitoes in Minnesota,
dashing up one side of me, darting down the other, crashing into the
windows, falling off their perches, didn't even know they perched,
flying backwards, flying backwards, it was like something out of the
Exorcist. After a while though, I got bored with it all. Next Summer I'm
going to Alaska to feed french bread soaked in Wild Turkey to polar
bears. Wish me luck! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
"Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in
message news:41919A5B.970DDFC7@backpacker.com...
| Quote: |
Dylan Nicholson wrote:
"don groves" <dgroves@domain.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bfb2aa4aa5a38d5989ace@news.individual.net...
In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
But that *isn't* irony - it's more or less what might be expected.
It would *more* ironic if only 2 or 3 parents showed up.
How is that ironic? It would really be ironic if only two or three
parents showed up and there still wasn't enough room and the meeting had
to be cancelled.
Uh, it would be ironic because the meeting is being held due to *increased* |
enrollment, which would logically lead one to expect a large number of
parents to show up. Having only 2 or 3 show up would lead to the
contradiction of reality and expectation that is a vital ingredient of
"True Irony" (TM).
FWIW, I fully agreed with your description of why the "Complete
Sentences" bumper sticker was ironic, so clearly we have *some*
(=BizarroRFE "*some* (=BizarroFrankE "some (no emphasis)")")
sort of agreement on what irony is. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
don groves <dgroves@domain.net> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
|
There's a major pondal difference, which is what I've seen to be the
usual source of the dispute. After seven years of Usenet observation, I
offer these distinctions:
British irony -- saying the opposite of what is meant, for humorous
effect. This is what many in US would call "sarcasm", but "sarcasm" to
the British (and even to some Yanks) is something bitter and cutting,
never a mild pleasantry.
American irony -- also known as "dramtic irony," closely related to
"poetic justice" and "twist of fate." A turn of events that is both
surprising and yet somehow predictable, deserved, fitting.
The example Don gives below is the American sort.
| Quote: |
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
|
It looks as if the other posts on this thread are analyzing whether this
is surprising enough to be a *good* example of American irony.
Canadian irony -- I'm not sure, but it seems to be very mild American
irony.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donna Richoux
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson <wizofaus@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gn1d6j.10sra5g1n1qvueN%trio@euronet.nl...
There's a major pondal difference, which is what I've seen to be the
usual source of the dispute. After seven years of Usenet observation, I
offer these distinctions:
British irony -- saying the opposite of what is meant, for humorous
effect. This is what many in US would call "sarcasm", but "sarcasm" to
the British (and even to some Yanks) is something bitter and cutting,
never a mild pleasantry.
American irony -- also known as "dramtic irony," closely related to
"poetic justice" and "twist of fate." A turn of events that is both
surprising and yet somehow predictable, deserved, fitting.
My experience is exactly the opposite.
|
This gets really complicated -- saying "exactly the opposite" is not
going to be enough to make things clear, I'm afraid. Once you add the
different meanings of "sarcasm," there are more than two positions.
| Quote: | It is only Americans that I've
heard saying "I was being ironic", where I would use the word
sarcastic.
|
(l) When you "would use the word 'sarcastic'," do you mean the "bitter,
cutting" meaning I said up top? Or the milder contrary-to-meaning that
is the "sarcastic" I grew up with (California)?
(2) Yes, some Americans do use the words "irony, ironic" in more of the
British sense (the mild contrary-to-meaning one) and we have never
established what region or age group or whatever (I suspect older
Northeasterners). But when I started realizing there was serious
confusion, and started labeling my sort of "sarcasm" as "California
sarcasm," I started getting responses that it wasn't just California! So
the geograph distribution is not well studied.
I can take off the labels "British" and "American" if we find something
better.
(3) There's the possible effect of recent change. I think because the
Brits use (their) irony so much and call it irony so often, I think the
rest of us who are exposed to this may tend to use their phrase more. It
seems to lead to fewer confusions and contradictions -- but it doesn't
remove the confusion totally.
I think I could get away with saying "I was being ironic" without
provoking a follow-up, but not with "That was irony," because then one
of my fellow countrymen would say "That's not irony, irony is when..."
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
An American living in the Netherlands |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dylan Nicholson
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gn1d6j.10sra5g1n1qvueN%trio@euronet.nl...
| Quote: |
There's a major pondal difference, which is what I've seen to be the
usual source of the dispute. After seven years of Usenet observation, I
offer these distinctions:
British irony -- saying the opposite of what is meant, for humorous
effect. This is what many in US would call "sarcasm", but "sarcasm" to
the British (and even to some Yanks) is something bitter and cutting,
never a mild pleasantry.
American irony -- also known as "dramtic irony," closely related to
"poetic justice" and "twist of fate." A turn of events that is both
surprising and yet somehow predictable, deserved, fitting.
My experience is exactly the opposite. It is only Americans that I've |
heard saying "I was being ironic", where I would use the word
sarcastic.
| Quote: | The example Don gives below is the American sort.
|
Except that it wasn't, as already discussed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sara Lorimer
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
don groves wrote:
| Quote: | In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title, but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is screwed" kind
of thing?
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
|
Recently the library lost the copy of a Jasper Fforde book being held
for me, and simultaneously lost another of his books that I'd returned
but they didn't check in. The librarian and I agreed that this was
ironic. (Explanation: Jasper Fforde's books have themes of books
disappearing.)
--
SML
Dignity, always dignity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:16 am
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
Donna Richoux wrote:
| Quote: | don groves <dgroves@domain.net> wrote:
In article <2vd7h7F2jftdjU1@uni-berlin.de>, Jordan Abel at
jmabel@purdue.edu exposited:
What _is_ the real definition of "irony", and how does one tell
whether
something is irony or not? My usage was the one I thought was
correct, in
contrast to that in the Alanis Morissette song of the same title,
but I
keep getting criticized for using it.
Does anyone really know? Or is it an elitist "I know it when I
see it but
can't or won't identify it so anyone who _doesn't_ know it is
screwed" kind
of thing?
|
That would be ironic, considering Fowler's (I think) definition.
| Quote: | There's a major pondal difference, which is what I've seen to be the
usual source of the dispute. After seven years of Usenet observation,
I
offer these distinctions:
British irony -- saying the opposite of what is meant, for humorous
effect. This is what many in US would call "sarcasm", but "sarcasm"
to
the British (and even to some Yanks) is something bitter and cutting,
never a mild pleasantry.
American irony -- also known as "dramtic irony," closely related to
"poetic justice" and "twist of fate." A turn of events that is both
surprising and yet somehow predictable, deserved, fitting.
|
How do you feel about "wit on the part of Fate"? If you like it, I'll
take credit.
| Quote: | The example Don gives below is the American sort.
There was a bit of irony in our local paper a few days ago.
Apparently there was to be a meeting at the schoolhouse in a UK
town about enlarging the school due to increased enrollment and
the meeting was cancelled as there was not enough room for all
the townsfolk who wanted to attend.
It looks as if the other posts on this thread are analyzing whether
this
is surprising enough to be a *good* example of American irony.
|
I'd say that both Dylan's and John's posts are saying that it's missing
contradiction, not surprise.
| Quote: | Canadian irony -- I'm not sure, but it seems to be very mild American
irony.
|
Poor Alanis!
--
Jerry Friedman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeff Urs
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
Here is the sort of thing I (a Yank born and bred) consider irony:
The nearby booming metropolis of Lexington, Kentucky, has been
pursuing a hostile acquisition of the local water company (like
many consummations, desirable but not acceptable when forced,
in my opinion). The local newspaper has been firmly in favor
of this action, and regularly prints editorials in favor of it.
The recent city council elections, fought largely on this one
issue, brought a sea change to Lexington's government, with many
of the pro-condemnation council members being replaced by anti-
condemnation members. It is now virtually certain that
condemnation proceedings will be halted. The newspaper has
nevertheless has printed an editorial urging the new council to
continue pursuing the acquisition of the water company.
Now, with that background, the newspaper today printed a letter
to the editor in which the correspondent, a resident of a
neighboring county, expressed her displeasure with her local
newspaper, which has dedicated itself to the cause of unifying
the governments of the county and the largest city in the county.
Although a referendum on the issue failed by a large margin in
the recent election, the newspaper nevertheless has printed an
editorial urging all once more into the breach.
What was the purpose of the letter? She was wondering whether
the Lexington paper (which is the only other newspaper in the
area with a substantial circulation) might start covering events
in her neck of the woods, so that she could switch papers, because
her paper just couldn't let an issue rest.
--
Jeff |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steve Hayes
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:55:33 +1100, "Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gn1d6j.10sra5g1n1qvueN%trio@euronet.nl...
There's a major pondal difference, which is what I've seen to be the
usual source of the dispute. After seven years of Usenet observation, I
offer these distinctions:
British irony -- saying the opposite of what is meant, for humorous
effect. This is what many in US would call "sarcasm", but "sarcasm" to
the British (and even to some Yanks) is something bitter and cutting,
never a mild pleasantry.
American irony -- also known as "dramtic irony," closely related to
"poetic justice" and "twist of fate." A turn of events that is both
surprising and yet somehow predictable, deserved, fitting.
My experience is exactly the opposite. It is only Americans that I've
heard saying "I was being ironic", where I would use the word
sarcastic.
|
I was very puzzled by an American extolling the work of Mark Twain for it's
"gentle sarcasm".
To me, "gentle sarcasm" is a contradiction in terms (AmE= oxymoron).
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Carmen L. Abruzzi
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Irony? |
|
|
Steve Hayes wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 06:55:33 +1100, "Dylan Nicholson" <wizofaus@hotmail.com
wrote:
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote in message
news:1gn1d6j.10sra5g1n1qvueN%trio@euronet.nl...
There's a major pondal difference, which is what I've seen to be the
usual source of the dispute. After seven years of Usenet observation, I
offer these distinctions:
British irony -- saying the opposite of what is meant, for humorous
effect. This is what many in US would call "sarcasm", but "sarcasm" to
the British (and even to some Yanks) is something bitter and cutting,
never a mild pleasantry.
American irony -- also known as "dramtic irony," closely related to
"poetic justice" and "twist of fate." A turn of events that is both
surprising and yet somehow predictable, deserved, fitting.
My experience is exactly the opposite. It is only Americans that I've
heard saying "I was being ironic", where I would use the word
sarcastic.
I was very puzzled by an American extolling the work of Mark Twain for it's
"gentle sarcasm".
|
It is indeed.
| Quote: |
To me, "gentle sarcasm" is a contradiction in terms (AmE= oxymoron).
It's obvious that you get Twain, just as it's obvious that |
they built the Eiffel Tower so that the paint on its
tippy-top could have an appropriate exposition. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
FAQ
Memberlist
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in